Hook punch

[skribs]

The best I've been able to identify about myself is that I prefer fists to the body (except that I like a palm-heel if I can am using a shoulder to open things up - it seems to affect their structure more), open hands to the head and face (mostly) except for a hook or a quick jab. And even as I type that, the statement is more definitive than reality.

Oh yeah, I forgot about jabs.

Can you explain more what you mean about palm-heels and shoulders?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh yeah, I forgot about jabs.

Can you explain more what you mean about palm-heels and shoulders?

Sometimes when I'm entering to grappling/clinch range, I want to shift their weight with a strike. A hard palm-heel to a shoulder (when they're protecting center and ribs well with their arms, so a shoulder is a big target) can get a foot to move. This can open them up to rib strikes on the side now facing me. This is most likely to be available when I've managed to control the situation already, so they're turtling while looking for a chance to counter or create space. I've not had luck doing this with a punch unless I punch really hard, which I'm loath to do with knuckles (or light gloves), because it can bruise that shoulder very nicely. With the palm-heel, I find it easier to add a bit of "push" in the strike.

EDIT: I should add a caution about this - if you do it, you're WIDE open for a counter, regardless of which arm you strike with. It's a reach and has to be used where they're on the defensive. (Though it can also be a useful feint if they've seen it before.)

 

[skribs]

Sometimes when I'm entering to grappling/clinch range, I want to shift their weight with a strike. A hard palm-heel to a shoulder (when they're protecting center and ribs well with their arms, so a shoulder is a big target) can get a foot to move. This can open them up to rib strikes on the side now facing me. This is most likely to be available when I've managed to control the situation already, so they're turtling while looking for a chance to counter or create space. I've not had luck doing this with a punch unless I punch really hard, which I'm loath to do with knuckles (or light gloves), because it can bruise that shoulder very nicely. With the palm-heel, I find it easier to add a bit of "push" in the strike.

EDIT: I should add a caution about this - if you do it, you're WIDE open for a counter, regardless of which arm you strike with. It's a reach and has to be used where they're on the defensive. (Though it can also be a useful feint if they've seen it before.)

In this case your goal is crowd control, not damage. That necessitates a different rule of thumb.

 

[punisher73]

Any of you guys throw a leaping hook? It’s where you circle your upper body down and around (like ducking) and as you’re coming back up you do a little leap step with both feet.
Basically, it’s a really loooong hook punch.

I believe many people refer to it as a "kangaroo punch" and Floyd Patterson used it to great effect in the ring.

 

[Buka]

I believe many people refer to it as a "kangaroo punch" and Floyd Patterson used it to great effect in the ring.

He did indeed. Marciano also used it a lot, (with either foot forward and either hand) Tyson used it too.

Helluva punch when you really want to hit. You can even use it sparring if you limp (relax) your wrist and elbow just before you land. (But don't limp the shoulder.)

 

[Flying Crane]

Just to throw something a little different into the discussion, we have a whipping “hook” punch that impacts with the top of the fist, whipped on a horizontal (ish) plane. So when you make a fist, it is the platform made by the circle of the thumb and first finger.

The arm is straight, and the elbow begins to bend into the whip just before impact is made. Power comes from rotating the body, driven from the feet. If you just swing the arm into it without the body engagement, it is useless.

I would not recommend using it against a solid target such as the torso. Instread, a less stable target like the jaw, mounted on a wobbly neck is best. I was told by a fellow white crane guy that when he was a teenager and was trying out his stuff, he got in a fight in a park (he probably provoked it), and he hit a guy with it and it moved the fellow’s jaw to the side of his face. Freaked him out. Disturbing.

I’ve practiced it on a double-end ball and it does send it whipping around quite satisfactorily. I’ve practiced it on a heavy bag, being careful to protect my elbow in the impact, and it can rattle the bag quite nicely. I’ve also practiced it on a Thai focus mitt, and the guy holding the mit said he can feel the energy punch through the mitt and it hurt his hand.

So there is another option.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The hook punch is very similar to use your hand to grab on your opponent's wrist. When you hook punch above your opponent's elbow joint, you can

- use your forearm to push your opponent's upper arm.
- move your arm as a snake and under hook his shoulder.
- reverse your hook punch and wrap your opponent's arm.
- ...

The hook punch plays a very important rule in the striking art and wrestling art integration.

 

[JR 137]

Just to throw something a little different into the discussion, we have a whipping “hook” punch that impacts with the top of the fist, whipped on a horizontal (ish) plane. So when you make a fist, it is the platform made by the circle of the thumb and first finger.

The arm is straight, and the elbow begins to bend into the whip just before impact is made. Power comes from rotating the body, driven from the feet. If you just swing the arm into it without the body engagement, it is useless.

I would not recommend using it against a solid target such as the torso. Instread, a less stable target like the jaw, mounted on a wobbly neck is best. I was told by a fellow white crane guy that when he was a teenager and was trying out his stuff, he got in a fight in a park (he probably provoked it), and he hit a guy with it and it moved the fellow’s jaw to the side of his face. Freaked him out. Disturbing.

I’ve practiced it on a double-end ball and it does send it whipping around quite satisfactorily. I’ve practiced it on a heavy bag, being careful to protect my elbow in the impact, and it can rattle the bag quite nicely. I’ve also practiced it on a Thai focus mitt, and the guy holding the mit said he can feel the energy punch through the mitt and it hurt his hand.

So there is another option.

So it’s pretty much a ridge hand strike, but with a fist rather than open handed? Seems logical to me.

We have a hook backfist. Comes in just like a hook punch would, only more exaggerated. You snap the wrist right before impact and use the same spot on your fist like a regular backfist. Thumb side of the fist pointing down towards the ground. It feels really powerful on a bag. You wind up and whip it around. We’re supposed to target the back of the skull with it, best used if you’re pulling your opponent’s arm downward.

I hate it. The back of the head is pretty hard. I’ve punched people in the back of the head (not with this though); punching someone in the back of the head isn’t as effective as some people make it out to be.

It would be pretty effective hitting the jaw though. A regular hook punch would be better though - more compact and drives through rather than snaps.

 

[JP3]

Just to throw something a little different into the discussion, we have a whipping “hook” punch that impacts with the top of the fist, whipped on a horizontal (ish) plane. So when you make a fist, it is the platform made by the circle of the thumb and first finger.

The arm is straight, and the elbow begins to bend into the whip just before impact is made. Power comes from rotating the body, driven from the feet. If you just swing the arm into it without the body engagement, it is useless.

I would not recommend using it against a solid target such as the torso. Instread, a less stable target like the jaw, mounted on a wobbly neck is best. I was told by a fellow white crane guy that when he was a teenager and was trying out his stuff, he got in a fight in a park (he probably provoked it), and he hit a guy with it and it moved the fellow’s jaw to the side of his face. Freaked him out. Disturbing.

I’ve practiced it on a double-end ball and it does send it whipping around quite satisfactorily. I’ve practiced it on a heavy bag, being careful to protect my elbow in the impact, and it can rattle the bag quite nicely. I’ve also practiced it on a Thai focus mitt, and the guy holding the mit said he can feel the energy punch through the mitt and it hurt his hand.

So there is another option.

 

[JP3]

That White Crane strike... man that sounds almost exactly like I was originally taught to deliver what we (TKD/HKD) called a "ridgehand" strike. It sounds like you might make your hand into a fist for the strike, where the ridgehand is extended like a typical knifehand/shoto.

Body mechanics, effects, and impact potential are almost exactly the same, though. Huh.

 

[Flying Crane]

So it’s pretty much a ridge hand strike, but with a fist rather than open handed? Seems logical to me.

We have a hook backfist. Comes in just like a hook punch would, only more exaggerated. You snap the wrist right before impact and use the same spot on your fist like a regular backfist. Thumb side of the fist pointing down towards the ground. It feels really powerful on a bag. You wind up and whip it around. We’re supposed to target the back of the skull with it, best used if you’re pulling your opponent’s arm downward.

I hate it. The back of the head is pretty hard. I’ve punched people in the back of the head (not with this though); punching someone in the back of the head isn’t as effective as some people make it out to be.

It would be pretty effective hitting the jaw though. A regular hook punch would be better though - more compact and drives through rather than snaps.

Our hook definitely has some similarities with a ridge hand. There are some differences though, at least in how I am familiar with the ridge hand. Our body mechanics are a bit different in that we rotate the torso in driving the punch so that the torso (in the ideal phase) is turned sideways to the enemy who is in front, the striking arm is extended as a straight line through the shoulders, and the elbow folds in at impact which creates the final whip. From my understanding of the ridge hand, it is somewhat of a more straight-armed strike without bending the elbow, and may fold at the shoulder if striking to an enemy who is foreword.

So I believe it is similar, but not directly translatable as just a ridge hand with a closed fist.

 

[Flying Crane]

That White Crane strike... man that sounds almost exactly like I was originally taught to deliver what we (TKD/HKD) called a "ridgehand" strike. It sounds like you might make your hand into a fist for the strike, where the ridgehand is extended like a typical knifehand/shoto.

Body mechanics, effects, and impact potential are almost exactly the same, though. Huh.

Similar, but not quite the same. See my previous post.

 

[Flying Crane]

So it’s pretty much a ridge hand strike, but with a fist rather than open handed? Seems logical to me.

We have a hook backfist. Comes in just like a hook punch would, only more exaggerated. You snap the wrist right before impact and use the same spot on your fist like a regular backfist. Thumb side of the fist pointing down towards the ground. It feels really powerful on a bag. You wind up and whip it around. We’re supposed to target the back of the skull with it, best used if you’re pulling your opponent’s arm downward.

I hate it. The back of the head is pretty hard. I’ve punched people in the back of the head (not with this though); punching someone in the back of the head isn’t as effective as some people make it out to be.

It would be pretty effective hitting the jaw though. A regular hook punch would be better though - more compact and drives through rather than snaps.

Your backfist hook sounds similar to something we also have. I agree, I would not use it on the back of the head. The jaw or temple though, yeah that sounds good.

 

[JR 137]

Our hook definitely has some similarities with a ridge hand. There are some differences though, at least in how I am familiar with the ridge hand. Our body mechanics are a bit different in that we rotate the torso in driving the punch so that the torso (in the ideal phase) is turned sideways to the enemy who is in front, the striking arm is extended as a straight line through the shoulders, and the elbow folds in at impact which creates the final whip. From my understanding of the ridge hand, it is somewhat of a more straight-armed strike without bending the elbow, and may fold at the shoulder if striking to an enemy who is foreword.

So I believe it is similar, but not directly translatable as just a ridge hand with a closed fist.

We throw the ridge hand several different ways. One way it as you describe, another way is like a whipping hook punch like I think you’re describing with your punch, and we do it coming straight down (think of the guys breaking stuff, only hitting a person instead). We throw the backfist a bunch of different ways too.

 

[Flying Crane]

We throw the ridge hand several different ways. One way it as you describe, another way is like a whipping hook punch like I think you’re describing with your punch, and we do it coming straight down (think of the guys breaking stuff, only hitting a person instead). We throw the backfist a bunch of different ways too.

Interesting.

We also use the same striking platform on the fist in a rising punch. The same torso rotation, driven from the feet. In the ideal, the torso rotates to be sideways to the enemy who is in front. The striking fist rises with the arm extended, all the way to straight up. The most obvious use of the punch is to come up under the chin, driving all they say through, snapping the head sharply back. I think it could kill outright, and if not, then could knock someone very violently over backwards. If they hit their head on the concrete, that could kill them. The strike is done as a fluid motion as the torso is rotated. This punch is called pau Choi, or cannon fist. The hook punch is chau Choi.

Another is an outward swing from across the body, also with the same fist platform. It is more difficult to describe, I feel it may be our most powerful punch. Working it on the heavy bag, it feels very powerful, and would be best targeted against the side of the head or hinge of the jaw. This is called baht gim, drawing the sword.

In retrospect, when I learned the ridgehand in the context of Tracy lineage kenpo, all we really focused on was the shape of the hand and the striking platform. I remember experimenting with using it at different angles, but the body mechanics for optimal delivery were generally overlooked. At the time I didn’t even realize it was missing, just wasn’t clued into it or of the notion of optimal body mechanics in the delivery.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So it’s pretty much a ridge hand strike, but with a fist rather than open handed? Seems logical to me.

We have a hook backfist. Comes in just like a hook punch would, only more exaggerated. You snap the wrist right before impact and use the same spot on your fist like a regular backfist. Thumb side of the fist pointing down towards the ground. It feels really powerful on a bag. You wind up and whip it around. We’re supposed to target the back of the skull with it, best used if you’re pulling your opponent’s arm downward.

I hate it. The back of the head is pretty hard. I’ve punched people in the back of the head (not with this though); punching someone in the back of the head isn’t as effective as some people make it out to be.

It would be pretty effective hitting the jaw though. A regular hook punch would be better though - more compact and drives through rather than snaps.

I'd imagine the intended target is the soft spot behind the ear, just under the base of the skull. A pretty small target.

 

[marques]

Is your hook punch with a vertical or horizontal fist?
Do you strike with the first 2 knuckles or the last 3 knuckles?

From vertical with fingers ‘inside’ to vertical with fingers ‘outside’, according to range. Last 3 knuckles left hand, middle 2 with right (if I have a choice). For anatomical and comfort reasons. Theories can vary a lot...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most people would have figured it out after the first one, but I am a scientist and needed to increase my sample size.

 

[dvcochran]

Been there, done that.

 

[JP3]

Similar, but not quite the same. See my previous post.

Nah... I'm sticking to the original thought, even more now. The body posture, the elbow bend, final strike position, all the same. That's the way I learned it.

I have seen folks do the RH the way you described your understanding of it, though. To me, it didn't have the same power curve at the moment of impact, but maybe I was not doing it right.