Knowing karate doesn't help very much...

[rlp271]

I think that's a good point about BJJ. Striking arts have that problem where hitting people properly tends to break them. Grappling arts are in no way gentler, but doing things properly doesn't cause the same damage (broken stuff) as long as the uke taps at the appropriate moment. It's not a tough man competition, tap when the technique is definitely on. It also has the advantage that you can train things like Judo, wrestling, and BJJ in an alive manner without the bloody mess you get when you hit people really hard with no pads.

Another big advantage that the MMA gym mentioned in the article has is that it's easy to keep the attention of the children doing what they do. Two minutes of punching, two minutes of kicking, move to ground work, do some calisthenics. That's an awesome way to run a class for kids. At the end, throw in some real, solid ground techniques. We've already discussed why kata can be bad for children in the Karate part of the forum, and the more I train, the more I realize the way I learned as a little kid does not work for 90% of all little kids.

The article is still garbage, but you can at least pull a few things away from it if you're not the average person reading it in Esquire or on his blog. Print media really needs to start looking for people with credentials rather than some dude who writes a blog in his free time.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

OK those of us who have had the pleasure of training in good Karate know what a good martial art it can be but let's be honest about the availability and accesability of good Karate in most areas.

I know 1 school within 5 miles that is good and another 15 miles away, and most people wont find these 2 schools to easy. Parents are going to go to the school that is easy to go to and want a steril, over equipt Dojo, not a sparse, wood floored, 2 Makiwara and a punching bag Dojo (My prefered Dojo for Karate)

So if this guy walked into your average commercial Dojo/Dojang and talked to a few people who have been around the same then one can see why he is comming from this standpoint. Let's be real, most of those schools are running an activity and babysitting for profit, they water and dumb everything down and totally divorce the arts from violence as it is.

When kids go to those kind of school, yes it can be positive in many areas but they are also learning how to get there as kicked. They are taught acrobatic kicking, limp wrist punching, air chopping with little idea how the the technique should be deliverd and the where and when of it as well.

Whereas the average Judo/BJJ/MMA school will have kids working against each other, useing simple, proven techniques and building combative attributes.

At the same time, with the rise in popularity of MMA and BJJ and more and more schools opening, you will have more (you allready have this) of these schools watering down to teach kids and wimpy adults.
You allready have schools that advertise MMA, taught by people who have never done real MMA.

When people ask me about putting there kids in the arts and what I suggest, even I , who has a background in Karate and is greatfull for it wont advocate the local karate or TKD place, I usually advocate for Judo/BJJ or a good youth MMA program a friend runs. I will tell them that karate or TKD as it is traditionaly taught is great and IF you can find such a school than by all means put the kids in for a trial.

Now with my own kids, the 2 boys (5 and 8) are allready doing informal training and martial play, the youngest comes to my Kids class (I teach a once a week MA program at a local gym.) but in the next 1-3 years both will start ... Karate, good traditional Okinawan/Japanese Karate from a small Dojo tucked away in an industrial park. I know the base karate can give you for further study in the arts or they can stick with Karate and be well prepared.

I think what those upset about this article can do besides writting the mag and giving your $0.02 is do your best to promote good karate. Point out how Machida is a jKarte based artist who has done very well for hiomself in MMA.

 

[Shin71]

Karate lessons won't do squat if they are not properly taught. Period. If a kid's karate class is warming up with jumping jacks, a good bit of oh-s/he's-sort-of-moving-the-right-way, and then closing with dodge ball....that kid is not learning much karate.

What makes Karate so powerful is its strong, rigid strikes. Some folks say their style is softer...but the way to make a hard style softer is to incorporate circular movements and more grappling moves -- not by throwing uncommitted strikes with no power behind them.

Carol is correct; training is the key. If the school is making money by simpley being an athletic day care and not giving good instruction then they are at fault but so are the parents if their goal is have their children be able to defend themselves. Parents should be a part of it at least enough to know the difference between dance and defense.

Good defensive training can be fun and not painful/dangerous as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that's a good point about BJJ. Striking arts have that problem where hitting people properly tends to break them. Grappling arts are in no way gentler, but doing things properly doesn't cause the same damage (broken stuff) as long as the uke taps at the appropriate moment. It's not a tough man competition, tap when the technique is definitely on. It also has the advantage that you can train things like Judo, wrestling, and BJJ in an alive manner without the bloody mess you get when you hit people really hard with no pads.

Another big advantage that the MMA gym mentioned in the article has is that it's easy to keep the attention of the children doing what they do. Two minutes of punching, two minutes of kicking, move to ground work, do some calisthenics. That's an awesome way to run a class for kids. At the end, throw in some real, solid ground techniques. We've already discussed why kata can be bad for children in the Karate part of the forum, and the more I train, the more I realize the way I learned as a little kid does not work for 90% of all little kids.

The article is still garbage, but you can at least pull a few things away from it if you're not the average person reading it in Esquire or on his blog. Print media really needs to start looking for people with credentials rather than some dude who writes a blog in his free time.

Good post and solid points about striking arts. I train karate much like what you are describing in an MMA gym. The difference is that I'll throw in some partner work and attempt to create alive situations to train some of the kata principles.

 

[bribrius]

i think the author of the article missed the point.

This is only my second post. If i wanted to just teach my kids to kick the crap out of someone i could do that. I took more than one black belt out as a youngster with just a little fma and the mentality that breaking boards with my head was fun and bashing their head off the pavement and choking them out was a necessary consequence. Lest we not forget punching things until our fists bled or the heavy bag with blood stains. You can learn the highlights of different arts quicker than the actual art i would guess. Little military and my mindset was there. But my skills weren't. I never went far in anything. what i prefer my kids to learn is a actual ART.

mma is great, pick and choose different aspects and not learning the "religious" side of it sort of speak or any of them to a great extent. You can basically toss out everything that doesn't seem directly useful or likely to work.

But that isn't the point of martial ARTS is it? In fact what i taught my child already (if you read the first post) i am worried i SCREWED UP her learning tae the right way.

or maybe i am wrong, it has happend before. I am new here so i hope i am not out of line.

 

[Tanaka]

I have a couple of comments. First, that kid in the picture is about to get his guard passed. I don't know what the hell he thinks he's doing.

Being serious, I'll just comment based on what I've seen locally. The big advantage that I see in an MMA/BJJ type school over a "traditional" karate school is that the kids in an MMA school learn age appropriate skills that they can execute at full speed against a fully resisting partner. There are bloody noses sometimes, and tears sometimes, but the skills and abilities that they're gaining are practical and usable. Also, they are rewarded based upon tangible, demonstrable progress.

Looks like hes trying to pull off a sweep.

 

[bribrius]

in the pic i would prefer to be the kid on the bottom anyday.

lots of options.....

 

[Master Dan]

Besides, karate lessons didn't really help a generation of bullied kids who discovered that fights almost always degenerated into on-the-ground chaos — no polish, no finesse, no twirling butterfly kicks. Those skills, which might've impressed tournament judges, were useless against street-savvy brawlers. ​

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/the-side/feature/mma-kids-fighting-090810#ixzz0z4JcMZ25​

Wow, uniformed about karate much. Why is it everyone seems to think karate is useless on the ground or that it's all flowery movements? Yet much of karate's strikes are packaged as Krav Maga or Hisardut or some other MA and it's suddenly revolutionary. I've seen karateka fight and it was not anything near pretty, in fact it was pretty brutal and as aggro as you could get without ripping limbs off and beating the opponent with it.​

WOW WOW TWICE!! A common mistake of youth or the uninformed is that because a person has little or no skills to defend themselve is not a bad style!! it is a poor instructor and it may have gone on for 2 or 3 generations but that is due to the westernization and money money money watering down what was meant to be passed on from father to son or tradition. I enjoy a good MMA fight and I have respect for thier heart and conditioning but too many think it is the answer for everything. All styles back to thier roots have devistating street self defense and a different mind set that is about survival not winning or sport rules. MMA is still sport. No real master or grand master is going to share that knowledge with someone who's only motivation is to smack somebody or shouldn't?

Still the chickens have come home to roost at the feet of many first generation masters who chose to treat the American public as a commidity and take short cuts for the almight dollar wattering down and lowering requirments ripping them off in some cases. Americans Western philosophy is directly opposed to Estern philosophy. Asian or Eastern people consider them selves smaller than the goal and submitt themselves with out question to that goal and time has no meaning just do it and eventually you will get there its the journeythat is the best part.

Americans visualize them selves as bigger than the goal more important they have no patience they want it right now doing it once or a few times is enough? Take a pill get it cut. MMA is the culmination of that attitude I want it all with out any tradition or loyalty to anyone. The whole point to MA training is to counter act that attitude and gain a valuable life skill. I am conflicted if MMA is here to stay or is just a fad that will eventually die just like PKA.

The point is to learn life skills for kids, kicking somebodies butt is a by product and possibly a reward skill if you have done the real work.

I watched two kids not more than 8 jump off thier bikes in traffic and just start full out walling on each other. The cars had to go around finnally one of them gets up gets on his bike and hall *** the other one following I followed them to a front yard to scold them and they were going at it again before I said any thing I noticed bunch of other kids were there watching one spoke up, oh its ok thier brothers they fight like this all the time they like MMA I decide to say nothing whats the point?

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Karate can be nasty when taught properly and when the student is willing to put the work in learning the art.

It is not just the sparring but the kata can be very dangerous. It looks like dance but it is a very deadly one.

If you don't believe me. Ask this guy. He'll tell you Karate is no joke. Once he wakes up.

 

[Eazy]

Of course it dose Look at this a reall typical confontation situation by the end of it i still would not know the Martial art this guy practiced. The fact is he knows something more than the typical aggressor.

It used to be that people who knew how to fight and did training are generaly not aggressors because they don't feel the need to prove anything, Quite opposite to what you see here. Enjoy.

This guy handled this situation with a White or yellow belt strike but black belt attitude. He didn't need any more on the day and that is what counts, Im my opinion which i understand may not be that of others.

 

[Eazy]

Ok one more thing ide like to say.
Im going to do Karate at the age of 40.

Why Karate? For 1 its all thats in my area without traveling 200kms.
Its popular so if i move location i may find another trainer near by.
It is in the style of Chidokan Karate Do, Well i hope to any way depends on the medical. Christopher Pearce Runs the Dojo. Some here may know him. Im doing it for a Platform for healthy life style, and good defence skills, Not to go whip some butt.

I used to hate a fight when i never got hit, a the one hit wonders used to piss me off.
Now i don't care for that, I just want to put them in a subittion hold and not hurt them.

so what im saying is it depends on your personal needs and whats avaliable within reason and what you like to do with it.

I think Karate is a good platform to build on.

He teaches Tai chi and Aikido whick seem to me as the more non aggressor type of the arts so this is what i'll target or focus on.

Just to clariffy something eles i would be more than Honered to Be in Chris Pearce's Dojo He has at least a 7 dan and has tained all over the world his life is commited to it, you really can't ask for better than that can you?.

I say a black belt in any traditional martial art is good and worthy of respect. Its dose not matter who can beat who in the ring, unless thats your reason for doing it. But for most defending their life in scociety thats important.

 

[MJS]

Frankly, I don't think too much of this article, but I thought I'd share it for that reason. See what you think of it.

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/feature/mma-kids-fighting-090810

I'll call BS on a good portion of what he's saying, especially after I saw this part:

Besides, karate lessons didn't really help a generation of bullied kids who discovered that fights almost always degenerated into on-the-ground chaos — no polish, no finesse, no twirling butterfly kicks. Those skills, which might've impressed tournament judges, were useless against street-savvy brawlers. Alan Belcher can personally testify; he started training at eight years old, and eighteen years later he's a top five UFC middleweight. If a child is attacked, "knowing karate isn't going to help very much," Belcher says, "but BJJ gives them a fighting chance."

Now, I do agree with the first part.....alot of the Karate that we see today, is flashy junk that has no place in a real fight. You see katas, traditional katas, that have transformed into a gymnastics routine. Ya know what....someone starts doing cartwheels and front rolls in a fight, and they probably will win.....because the other person will be too busy laughing to fight. LOL!

The part that I call BS on though, is what he says that BJJ gives them a fighting chance. This, IMO, sounds nothing but an advertisement for BJJ. Now, I'm not bashing BJJ, but.....its not the end all, be all, mega art that people claim it is. Yes, its the best to learn ground skills, hell, I went to BJJ to improve my ground game, but....you dont see me hero-worshipping like you see others.

IMHO, it comes down to 1 thing....quality. If the quality of the art sucks, chances are, you'll have students that suck...unless the students take it upon themselves to make sure their own training works. In other words, as long as your training is effective, who cares about the others, if they're not seeing it.

​

 

[MJS]

Besides, karate lessons didn't really help a generation of bullied kids who discovered that fights almost always degenerated into on-the-ground chaos — no polish, no finesse, no twirling butterfly kicks. Those skills, which might've impressed tournament judges, were useless against street-savvy brawlers. ​

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/the-side/feature/mma-kids-fighting-090810#ixzz0z4JcMZ25​

Wow, uniformed about karate much. Why is it everyone seems to think karate is useless on the ground or that it's all flowery movements? Yet much of karate's strikes are packaged as Krav Maga or Hisardut or some other MA and it's suddenly revolutionary. I've seen karateka fight and it was not anything near pretty, in fact it was pretty brutal and as aggro as you could get without ripping limbs off and beating the opponent with it.​

Probably because its been watered down to suit the masses. I mean think about it...what you're saying, takes time, and lots of it, to really master something. Thing is, people dont want to spend that time. Think about how many schools would lose students to the other schools that give away black belts after 2yrs, and to 6yr olds. People dont want to spend the time trying to find the grappling moves....no, they want to spend X amount of time, between one belt and the next, and when that time is up, they better get that next belt.

BTW, I agree with your post here. Just pointing that little part out.

 

[MJS]

I have a couple of comments. First, that kid in the picture is about to get his guard passed. I don't know what the hell he thinks he's doing.

Being serious, I'll just comment based on what I've seen locally. The big advantage that I see in an MMA/BJJ type school over a "traditional" karate school is that the kids in an MMA school learn age appropriate skills that they can execute at full speed against a fully resisting partner. There are bloody noses sometimes, and tears sometimes, but the skills and abilities that they're gaining are practical and usable. Also, they are rewarded based upon tangible, demonstrable progress.

Yet another thing that seperates the 'men from the boys' so to speak. Let little Joey get busted up in the regular Karate classes, and his mommy and daddy will pull that kid out faster than you can blink.

Its those parents that dont care whether or not Joey can fight...as long as he has those belts every month, and gets his BB by the time he's 10. LMAO.

 

[Steve]

i think the author of the article missed the point.

This is only my second post. If i wanted to just teach my kids to kick the crap out of someone i could do that. I took more than one black belt out as a youngster with just a little fma and the mentality that breaking boards with my head was fun and bashing their head off the pavement and choking them out was a necessary consequence. Lest we not forget punching things until our fists bled or the heavy bag with blood stains. You can learn the highlights of different arts quicker than the actual art i would guess. Little military and my mindset was there. But my skills weren't. I never went far in anything. what i prefer my kids to learn is a actual ART.

mma is great, pick and choose different aspects and not learning the "religious" side of it sort of speak or any of them to a great extent. You can basically toss out everything that doesn't seem directly useful or likely to work.

But that isn't the point of martial ARTS is it? In fact what i taught my child already (if you read the first post) i am worried i SCREWED UP her learning tae the right way.

or maybe i am wrong, it has happend before. I am new here so i hope i am not out of line.

I think that comparing martial arts to a religion is a very bad road to go down.

Looks like hes trying to pull off a sweep.

I hope it's clear that this was meant tongue in cheek. I wouldn't really criticize a child in a picture like that. It honestly looks like he's going for a variation of the scissor sweep where you push on the knee to stretch your partner out.

Yet another thing that seperates the 'men from the boys' so to speak. Let little Joey get busted up in the regular Karate classes, and his mommy and daddy will pull that kid out faster than you can blink.

Its those parents that dont care whether or not Joey can fight...as long as he has those belts every month, and gets his BB by the time he's 10. LMAO.

First, lest anyone get the wrong impression, kids don't get busted up at my school. There are tears sometimes, and very rarely there is some blood.

But to your point, what do these types of parents have to do with this? I mean, it's really up to them whether their child stays at the school or not. Some parents are in. Other parents won't be. Some kids will stay. Many won't. What you describe is, in my opinion, a poor parenting philosophy and in no way a reflection of the school (good or bad.)

The kids program at my school (and I'm really specifically not generalizing, because I don't know how they all work), is a physically challenging class. Burpees, pushups, lots of running around and every class ends with 15 minutes of bjj sparring. Some kids really respond to that kind of physical activity.

They act with respect in class, are expected to pay attention and not horse around, and are taught to be mindful of their training partners. All of the things that a "traditional" MA school purports to teach are also taught here, as they are taught in any quality kids program, whether it's the chess team or the football team.

Ultimately, in my opinion as a parent, it's not important what activity my kids are involved in. Only that they are involved in an activity that is positive and that they enjoy.

My two oldest kids tried MA and didn't care for it. I don't mind, as long as they continue to be involved in programs and activities to teach them what they need to know to be quality human beings. I would say that programs that claim to teach something and don't (like "self defense") are counter productive, but you guys have heard that from me before, so I won't get into it here.

As a complete aside here, just bragging a little about my son, he started high school this year and is in JROTC as a 0 hour class. He's up every morning at 5:30am and out the door to school for JROTC from 6 to 7. I couldn't be prouder of how responsible he's been about it, and he seems to really enjoy it so far. As a veteran from a large family of veterans (including everyone in my immediate family), it's just cool to see him in a uniform. Not that I'm anxious for him to enlist or anything... just proud of him.

 

[MJS]

First, lest anyone get the wrong impression, kids don't get busted up at my school. There are tears sometimes, and very rarely there is some blood.

But to your point, what do these types of parents have to do with this? I mean, it's really up to them whether their child stays at the school or not. Some parents are in. Other parents won't be. Some kids will stay. Many won't. What you describe is, in my opinion, a poor parenting philosophy and in no way a reflection of the school (good or bad.)

The kids program at my school (and I'm really specifically not generalizing, because I don't know how they all work), is a physically challenging class. Burpees, pushups, lots of running around and every class ends with 15 minutes of bjj sparring. Some kids really respond to that kind of physical activity.

They act with respect in class, are expected to pay attention and not horse around, and are taught to be mindful of their training partners. All of the things that a "traditional" MA school purports to teach are also taught here, as they are taught in any quality kids program, whether it's the chess team or the football team.

Ultimately, in my opinion as a parent, it's not important what activity my kids are involved in. Only that they are involved in an activity that is positive and that they enjoy.

My two oldest kids tried MA and didn't care for it. I don't mind, as long as they continue to be involved in programs and activities to teach them what they need to know to be quality human beings. I would say that programs that claim to teach something and don't (like "self defense") are counter productive, but you guys have heard that from me before, so I won't get into it here.

As a complete aside here, just bragging a little about my son, he started high school this year and is in JROTC as a 0 hour class. He's up every morning at 5:30am and out the door to school for JROTC from 6 to 7. I couldn't be prouder of how responsible he's been about it, and he seems to really enjoy it so far. As a veteran from a large family of veterans (including everyone in my immediate family), it's just cool to see him in a uniform. Not that I'm anxious for him to enlist or anything... just proud of him.

Hey Steve,

Let me clarify, as I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

First, my post was in response to what you said, in regards to kids doing things against a live opponent, with resistance, and while they may get a little bloody and banged up, they're gaining practical and usable skills.

My point was nothing against your post, but instead, I was pointing out that in many TMA schools, there is little to no contact, no blood, the skills aren't done on a live, resisting body, and the skills may not be usable or practical. I say this, because I've seen it.

What do the parents have to do with this? Simple...if a parent is enrolling their kid in the MAs to learn how to protect themselves, then they should understand that getting bumps, bruises, some blood, is the norm. The arts do involve contact, afterall. If their kid is getting the typical bumps, it usually offends them, they complain and pull their kid out...only to send them somewhere else, where they wont get 'hurt.' Of course, that is their choice, but they're fooling themselves if they think that by not getting some bumps, that its helping the kid. No, its hurting them. All they care about is the belt, while they assume the skills are there, when in reality, they're not.

Again, this was nothing against your post. I was simply making an observation.