Knife Myths

[Indagator]

Or you can use a Shock knife, get the feedback you need without running the risk of being cut. But it is still a simulation, whether using an artifical weapon(the Shock knife) or working through a technique at slow speed. It is not real world experience, not the visceral feel of live tissue experiment. Knife training is the coitus interuptus of martial arts training, you can never get the real feel of the ending.

Pretty much lol.

 

[Buka]

I'm loving this thread.

As to the original post about the myths, I'll go along with them. Keeping in mind, of course, that there are exceptions to every rule. As for those with real world experience, it's a larger culture than you would think. There are a lot of knife guys out there. They do a lot of contract work in dangerous parts of the world, they teach Special Forces men and for hire contractors working with/for many of our governments. When they're not abroad, they're home, teaching groups of people, some civilian, some protective services, everything blade.

The people who teach these things, sooner or later, make it to the old world Philippines and train with some real old school, old world, Masters. A lot of them having been doing so for many years. There is a lot of training. Clothing, every kind imaginable, is used at some point, as are slaughter houses, as are makeshift weapons, as are things used to defend against a blade. These people deal in real live war in hot spots across the globe.
Knife culture is deep. They don't leave anything to theory. They can't.

 

[Chris Parker]

Depends on where in the West. Things like machete attacks are becoming increasingly common here. Machetes are relatively cheap, and widely available...many home and garden shops have them. They are the weapon of choice for a notorious organized gang who needs no further publicity.

NH/VT/ME are the U.S. states are consistently the states with the three lowest crime rates in the country. Yet in my state alone, it is easy to find accounts of machete attacks.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/392100-196/police-see-disturbing-trend-in-use-of.html

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/916307-196/nashua-teen-charged-in-machete-robbery.html
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/nh-teen-gets-life-for-machete-murder-in-home-invasion/
http://www.wmur.com/news/23303120/detail.html
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ne...hester_nh_man_facing_machete_assault_charges/
http://www.officer.com/news/10264065/nh-suspect-arrested-found-by-his-severed-finger

Yep, which is why you should recognise both where the culture you're learning from is coming from (contextually), as well as the culture you are intending/needing to use the methods in. If there is a prevailance of machete attacks in your area, learning from a system that comes from a culture dealing with machete or similar attacks makes sense. For example, in Melbourne machete attacks are very rare, but in Sydney they are on the increase, particularly in a number of the gangs there.

From what I've seen, what I've read, and what people who know knife attacks better than I do say -- there are two primary sorts of knife attacks. The ones where the blade is brandished, and everyone can see it... and the ones where the first clue someone's been stabbed is when someone else notices that they're bleeding or dead.

In the first -- you've got a chance to deal with it. The general comments above are pretty reasonable. Keep things simple and direct. (Personally -- a gun is a great response to a brandished knife when possible.) Notice that I don't care if they really intend to stab or not. It's immaterial to me; I'm going to assume they intend to kill me. One of the biggest hurdles from interviews of victims I've done is simply accepting that they really are being threatened with a knife...

In the second? Not much you can do, other than react to the fact that you've been attacked. Don't roll over & die, fight and keep fighting. You don't know that the knife is there until you've been attacked with it; you're on the backside of time there, whether the weapon is a knife or club or fist.

Yep, that's about the long and the short of it!

 

[Indagator]

I'm loving this thread.

As to the original post about the myths, I'll go along with them. Keeping in mind, of course, that there are exceptions to every rule. As for those with real world experience, it's a larger culture than you would think. There are a lot of knife guys out there. They do a lot of contract work in dangerous parts of the world, they teach Special Forces men and for hire contractors working with/for many of our governments. When they're not abroad, they're home, teaching groups of people, some civilian, some protective services, everything blade.

The people who teach these things, sooner or later, make it to the old world Philippines and train with some real old school, old world, Masters. A lot of them having been doing so for many years. There is a lot of training. Clothing, every kind imaginable, is used at some point, as are slaughter houses, as are makeshift weapons, as are things used to defend against a blade. These people deal in real live war in hot spots across the globe.
Knife culture is deep. They don't leave anything to theory. They can't.

I have a friend who works for a private military contractor outfit that is pretty much like that.


Not a good guy to drink with though lol.

 

[Buka]

I have a friend who works for a private military contractor outfit that is pretty much like that.


Not a good guy to drink with though lol.

I'll bet he's making a nice pay day, too.

As for machete, a lot of the knife guys teach "Combat Machete" - which when I first heard that term I thought "Now, there's a really ugly term if I ever heard one." As was explained to me, they started that because machetes are used to clear paths in overgrown areas around the world. They had to adapt knife fighting principles to the longer weapon. There was instant feedback and development because a lot of the people involved were in battle. Some died, some didn't. Ugly world we live in.

 

[MJS]

So, here's a question. Both Chris and Frank mentioned things that caught my eye...Chris spoke of Mike Janich and Frank spoke of real world experience. So my question...What is Mikes background? Yeah, I know the guy is heavy into the blade, but what makes his stuff stand out more than say some of the FMA stuff out there? I do like Franks mention of the shock knife. Damn thing is not cheap, and while you're still not going to get the real world feel of actually cutting/slashing/stabbing someone or getting cut/slashed/stabbed yourself, the 'shock' factor alone will probably serve as more of a reality check than a rubber knife.

 

[Chris Parker]

Allow me to answer my part with some links....

Michael Janich's background: http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/about.htm

One of my favourite books from Michael, co-authored with his former partner, the late Christopher Grosz. Mr Grosz was a police officer, as well as a student and training partner of Michael's: http://www.staysafemedia.com/product.php?proid=9

 

[MJS]

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the links. So, I may be missing it, but I'm still not seeing what seperates Mikes RW experience with the blade vs. someone else, who has trained in a FMA blade oriented art, under a Filipino teacher, who most likely, has had some RW experience with the blade. For the record, no, I'm not doubting Mikes background, training, etc, just looking to see what seperates him from the others.

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't know that that's really the distinction, honestly. For me it's more about the approach taken, and the mindset behind the system itself. For instance, the Filipino systems have masters and teachers who have real world experience in bladed combat... but is that the same type of blade use, knife assault, etc that is found in a modern Western setting? Sometimes, but not often, really. Michael's concern from the get-go was to get past anything that he couldn't test and verify himself, rather than taking someone's word for it, which began with himself and Mr Grosz looking at the "Timetable of Death", and taking it to pieces. From there, the Filipino drills were adapted, modified, or dropped, depending on the way they worked, and the applicability as Michael saw it. There was a lot of research done into the way knife assaults happen in the US, rather than in the Philipines, from both Michael and Mr Grosz. So the distinction is in the focus relating to the environment, if that makes sense. And that's what puts him up in my listing.

 

[geezer]

In fact, I can find a True Story about a Commando in WW2 who went into Combat with a Claymore and a Bagpipe (Im being quite Serious, mind)... And Successfully... Won... On a couple of Occassions.

I have no doubt. But after having to endure an auditory assault with the bagpipes, his foes would likely throw themselves onto his claymore to end their suffering.

Now to get back on topic, I train and teach eskrima (Latosa, Torres DTE, and PCE systems) and have had some exposure to a number of well known instructors. I share the concern that a lot of what we practice is too far removed from real world experience to be reliable. Few people in our modern world have repeatedly confronted and survived bladed combat. I'm not one of those, nor would I care to be. In fact the few individuals I've encountered who have such experiences did not choose that life and looking back, wish that they had not . Food for thought.

 

[Indagator]

I don't know that that's really the distinction, honestly. For me it's more about the approach taken, and the mindset behind the system itself. For instance, the Filipino systems have masters and teachers who have real world experience in bladed combat... but is that the same type of blade use, knife assault, etc that is found in a modern Western setting? Sometimes, but not often, really. Michael's concern from the get-go was to get past anything that he couldn't test and verify himself, rather than taking someone's word for it, which began with himself and Mr Grosz looking at the "Timetable of Death", and taking it to pieces. From there, the Filipino drills were adapted, modified, or dropped, depending on the way they worked, and the applicability as Michael saw it. There was a lot of research done into the way knife assaults happen in the US, rather than in the Philipines, from both Michael and Mr Grosz. So the distinction is in the focus relating to the environment, if that makes sense. And that's what puts him up in my listing.

So Michael Janich's approach would be more applicable in a general setting as opposed to some other approaches which are focusing on specifics that may or may not be present in situations outside of what they are focused on?

 

[Chris Parker]

What I'm basically saying is that every single art in existence is designed for a specific environment/set of circumstances. So choosing something as it is designed around an environment, or set of circumstances that are much closer to what you are likely to encounter may be a better option, depending on what you're after. If you want to learn to kick high, and defend against high kicks, don't do Judo. If you want to learn unarmed self defence, don't do Iaido. If you are looking for a knife system for the here and now, designed to take the common assaults found in the modern Western environment, looking at the smaller blades (such as folders), and designed to end a conflict as soon as possible, then going to a system that is designed around more of a "dueling" situation, with longer blades, different attacking methods, and long drills is not going to be the best option necessarily.

 

[Cyriacus]

What I'm basically saying is that every single art in existence is designed for a specific environment/set of circumstances. So choosing something as it is designed around an environment, or set of circumstances that are much closer to what you are likely to encounter may be a better option, depending on what you're after. If you want to learn to kick high, and defend against high kicks, don't do Judo. If you want to learn unarmed self defence, don't do Iaido. If you are looking for a knife system for the here and now, designed to take the common assaults found in the modern Western environment, looking at the smaller blades (such as folders), and designed to end a conflict as soon as possible, then going to a system that is designed around more of a "dueling" situation, with longer blades, different attacking methods, and long drills is not going to be the best option necessarily.

Additionally, some Arts Emphasise Speed > Power, or Power > Speed, or Technique > Speed, or Technique > Power, and the same chain for Fitness, and Power > Technique, and so forth.

Theres alot of Choice involved in what You Learn.
It should as You said, start with What it is You want to Learn, exactly.
Then if its possible in Your Available Area, How You want to Learn it.

 

[frank raud]

I'll bet he's making a nice pay day, too.

As for machete, a lot of the knife guys teach "Combat Machete" - which when I first heard that term I thought "Now, there's a really ugly term if I ever heard one." As was explained to me, they started that because machetes are used to clear paths in overgrown areas around the world. They had to adapt knife fighting principles to the longer weapon. There was instant feedback and development because a lot of the people involved were in battle. Some died, some didn't. Ugly world we live in.

Why would you need to adapt knife fighting principles to the use of a machete?

 

[Chris Parker]

It depends on the knife system. The way we study knife, for instance, is very different to the use of a machete (in a combative sense), with completely different angles of attack, mechanics, defensive usage, targets, and more. I can think of a range of other systems where changing to a machete would require very little alteration, though.

 

[Carol]

Why would you need to adapt knife fighting principles to the use of a machete?

Design and application of the blade for one. Some knives were designed to be more of a thrusting weapon, such as a KaBar. Others were designed to be more of a slashing weapon, such as a kerambit. A machete in a classic sense is neither, as it was designed to be swung, many don't have a hilt to them. These differences all affect application and usage.

Another factor is fighting range. A longer blade designed to be swung has the benefit of a ranged weapon application, but has the disadvantage of being less useful at close or clinch range. Conversely a folding blade that one might have in their jeans pocket would be too small to be used as a ranged weapon but can be more useful in close range.

 

[frank raud]

It depends on the knife system. The way we study knife, for instance, is very different to the use of a machete (in a combative sense), with completely different angles of attack, mechanics, defensive usage, targets, and more. I can think of a range of other systems where changing to a machete would require very little alteration, though.

Bingo. But why make the tool fit the system when the tool already has a viable system? If you can use a machete to clear brush, you already know how to use it effectively. My buddies from Trinidad called a machete a cutlass, it is not a big knife, it is a small sword.

 

[Chris Parker]

If you have a knife system, but not a machete system. Who says that the modern, urban or city dwelling martial arts practitioner uses a machete to clear jungle brush? To be honest, when we go through machete work, I have to explain how a machete is used, which is different to a short sword (in a Japanese sense), and different to a knife (the way we use one, which is based on short folder-style weapons).

So basically, it comes down to potentially not having a viable system for the machete.

 

[frank raud]

Design and application of the blade for one. Some knives were designed to be more of a thrusting weapon, such as a KaBar. Others were designed to be more of a slashing weapon, such as a kerambit. A machete in a classic sense is neither, as it was designed to be swung, many don't have a hilt to them. These differences all affect application and usage.

Another factor is fighting range. A longer blade designed to be swung has the benefit of a ranged weapon application, but has the disadvantage of being less useful at close or clinch range. Conversely a folding blade that one might have in their jeans pocket would be too small to be used as a ranged weapon but can be more useful in close range.

I completely agree with you, Carol. So the question remains, why take a viable weapon, and try to use it in a fashion that it is not designed for? If you have a machete in hand, you should be able to establish range. If the machete is still in the scabbard and you are jumped/ambushed, it is not the appropriate weapon choice for the situation. Its a short sword, not a kabar or a kerambit. If someone tries to apply kerambit applications to a machete, it wont work well. You dont use a machete in reverse grip, edge in or edge out, the blade is too long for the mechanics to work. While you can stab with some machetes, it is not what they are designed for. Machetes hack, a number 1 or 2 angle is what they are most efficiently used for.

 

[frank raud]

If you have a knife system, but not a machete system. Who says that the modern, urban or city dwelling martial arts practitioner uses a machete to clear jungle brush? To be honest, when we go through machete work, I have to explain how a machete is used, which is different to a short sword (in a Japanese sense), and different to a knife (the way we use one, which is based on short folder-style weapons).

So basically, it comes down to potentially not having a viable system for the machete.

So, if someone is not familiar with a machete, you explain how it is used, and the differences between its use and that of a knife or sword. As I understand this, you recognize and point out they are different weapons, with different use and applications. When you teach the machete, do you teach using your knife system(which you say is different), or your sword style, or do you show it as a hacking instrument, not meant for fine detailed work? Ie, the way a machete is generally used?