Knife Fighting

[Kizaru]

What I have heard from Japan is you are pretty much weak and non-combative in nature.
What's the 'real' story behind Donny?
ralph severe, kamiyama

Don Roley's a skinny little wimp, I'm a deviant, you're a big fat guy from Texas.

Big deal, we've all got our demons...get over it, you'll be happier.

 

[Kreth]

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[Shogun]

So, if you get a stand up of new kids on the block I am sure you start drooling in anticipation.

Is your Gerber a folder? I just got a Gerber boot knife. Very nice double edged dagger. But there would be hell to pay if I got caught with it.

We got in a Neo standup from Matrix, and I tore that thing up. Any boy band or standup that imposes on me. lol.

My Gerber is a folder. just barely legal, too. (lengthwise).

 

[Don Roley]

Ok,
With the exception of a few like Dale, we all seem to think that a modern ninja would be carrying around a folder instead of a fixed blade.

Hatsumi has never AFAIK taught a method of opening a folder. We are kind of on our own here. How would we train for this while keeping the spirit of what Hatsumi teaches us?

I would say that the stuff I see on Kelly McCann' video "Inside the Crucible Volume 3" is the closest to what I think the Bujinkan would do. That is my opinion without any direct instruction on the matter by Hatsumi himself. It is simple and easy to do without being fancy. The fact that McCann has verifiable experience adds to the appeal.

In short, you just put your finger in the inside of the ring and just move it forward without trying to make a circle or anything. For those familiar with Bujinkan terms, go from a koppo ken to the boshi ken in as direct a fashion as possible.

I have practiced opening my drone with my hands so cold I could not feel them, after a workout of pushups that left my muscles shaking and when I was under the influence of single malt Scotch. The more complicated moves like I find on Michael Janich's stuff just do not work in those conditions based on my experience. I expect real combat to be worse that a freezing handed workout after an drinking binge.

Anyone train differently and managed to get things to work under pressure?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hatsumi has never AFAIK taught a method of opening a folder.

On accounts of someone who went to Japan a few months ago, Nagato sensei has and does, which would indicate...?

 

[Kreth]

In short, you just put your finger in the inside of the ring and just move it forward without trying to make a circle or anything. For those familiar with Bujinkan terms, go from a koppo ken to the boshi ken in as direct a fashion as possible.

This sounds reasonable, and close to how I do it. Maybe with slight differences depending on the opening mechanism (thumb stud/blade cutout). Expanding on this, I've also played around with opening the blade in different situations: while keeping it concealed, moving into a variation of seigan while opening (to display the blade as a deterrent), etc...

Jeff

 

[Blooming Lotus]

I spend a lot of time with the knife as well. From a japanese MA perspective the tanto was a back-up weapon, and used primarily in conjunction with jujutsu technique as a force multiplier(envision a samurai who lost his sword throwing down and subduing another and then dispatching with his tanto or wakizashi). This is what I try to do mostly now-a-days--using the blade in conjunction with different throws and locks or deploy it afterwards with kime waza.

I also work alot on blade retention and unarmed blade defense(tanto dori).

I do enjoy blade vs. blade as well and have a lot of fun with this, but it is knife fencing and not knife fighting in my book.

As far as american sensitivity, I don't 'teach' blade deployment or more offensive/pre-emptive blade technique to those not invioved with military or law enforcement. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with most students. I do, however, teach blade defense and retention to those who want it...

haven't read the whole thread because gotta run any moment, but do we have a favourite empty hand knife defence tech as opposed to retention ??? And what are thoughts on distance......... close the gap or try your luck from long - mid range???

Blooming Lotus

 

[DWeidman]

haven't read the whole thread because gotta run any moment, but do we have a favourite empty hand knife defence tech as opposed to retention ???

Sure. My favorite empty hand knife technique is the one that presents itself.

And what are thoughts on distance......... close the gap or try your luck from long - mid range???

Blooming Lotus

Yes.

-Daniel

 

[Dale Seago]

I agree with Dan on this one.

 

[Don Roley]

haven't read the whole thread

Perhaps you should. :wink2:

Moving on, Kreth brings up a good point. Just a few days ago I was waiting for laundry to dry at the laundromat and had reason to worry about some folks hanging around outside. I reached over myself with my left, pulled my Delica from my waistband carry, opened it in reverse grip and inserted it in the front flap of my shirt in such a way that they could not see it. If trouble had happened, it would have been in a much better position for fast deployment.

It is best to have a knife in your hand before trouble starts, especially with folders. The problem is getting it out without giving away anything or freaking out the people around you. Carrying the thing in the waistband like I do decreases the likelihood of it being seen, but outside of a cross draw like I did, the movement to get to it is bigger and more easy to be seen. I sometimes carry the Delica clipped in my pocket, but that increases the chance it will be noticed.

 

[Shogun]

instead of a folder, You could sharpen your teeth, and then if someone attacked you, you could bite em. jk.

I have a DVD (Fighting mad) where a girl has a knife in her pocket, and another girl gets above her an starts pummeling her. Girl A (knife girl) finally gets the knife out, but can only get in a stab on the lower leg, and Girl B doesnt even feel it. girl B got stabbed, but not bad. and if Girl B had a bludgeoning object, girl A would have been in some %$. So,....its probably better to make your knife more available if you sense danger....before it happens.

Kyle

 

[DWeidman]

It is best to have a knife in your hand before trouble starts, especially with folders.

Considering the legal ramifications to bringing a knife to bear in a fist fight... I am not sure that it is the wisest choice. In California, you are really rolling the dice on this one - as you don't have cause to escalate to a leathal response until a leathal threat materializes...

This is the catch 22 to having a weapon on you...

The good guys are always behind the 8-ball on this one...

-Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

True and if it opens with one hand. fick of the wrist, etc, Calif. will hit you with a felony.
The person who displays a knife or uses one in most states is on the wrong end of the law unless they can prove that their kife may have been in danger

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just discovered these two hotties on 888knivesrus:

http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/PC2254GT

http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/PC2259GT

Only thing I don't like is that the one with the guard (I like my fingers) is a bit long. Does anyone think it would be worth it to purchase two of the same type, and take the edge off on one of them and use them in training, or would it be smarter to do the same thing with a pair of Hissatsu instead?

 

[Dale Seago]

True and if it opens with one hand. fick of the wrist, etc, Calif. will hit you with a felony.

Not (necessarily) true at this time -- As an instructor in California I need to keep abreast of the laws here. You're referring to section 653K (regarding switchblades) of the California Penile Code, the statutes they'll use to screw you if you fail the "attitude test". What you describe used to be a misdemeanor, not a felony; however, in January of 2002 the law was changed.

It now states,

653k: Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.

(Edit: For a good overview of CA knife laws see this page by a former student of mine, Jim March, at http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So, does that mean that all folders that can be opened with wrist flicks/inertia openings are illegal...?

 

[Dale Seago]

So, does that mean that all folders that can be opened with wrist flicks/inertia openings are illegal...?

No, it's a matter of how it's designed/intended by the manufacturer to be opened. If you have a Spyderco with a "thumb-hole", or a Benchmade with a "stud" for opening. . .that just happens to have loosened up over time to the point where you can open it with a wrist-flick alone. . .it's still legal.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

While we're at it, how come AXIS locking knives aren't seen as assisted openers?

 

[Cryozombie]

While we're at it, how come AXIS locking knives aren't seen as assisted openers?

Or Kershaws?

 

[r erman]

I don't think they are as particular in my state. No exceptions for loose clipits:

(18) "Switchblade knife" means any knife which has a blade that folds or closes into the handle or sheath, and

(a) That opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other device located on the handle; or

(b) That opens or releases from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.

I like the vague reference to 'ordinary pocketknife' in this section:

(10) "Knife" means any dagger, dirk, stiletto, or bladed hand instrument that is readily capable of inflicting serious physical injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person. For purposes of this chapter, "knife" does not include any ordinary pocketknife with no blade more than four inches in length;

FWIW, I've really enjoyed this thread--a breath of fresh air around here.