Defense against knife

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...

www.sharkee.com

www.virtualblade.com

 

[eyebeams]

I had the opportunity to go all-out on my teacher with a knife about two years ago - including from behind, with the element of surprise (i.e. with free intervals between attacks). And with a steel Spyderco Temperance trainer, not a soft/rubber knife.

I died every time.
That's not how it's supposed to work, is it...?

Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.

 

[eyebeams]

Lately, I have been thinking of grabbing the wife's liptstick and taking it with me to training to put on the edges of the training knives. (I am sure she would be happy about that :O) LOL

After thinking more about that though, it too can be deceiving but in the opposite way. Unless a knife is extremely sharp, it will take some measurable amount of pressure to slice through clothing. Now of course it would take less to slice open skin. On the flipside, it will nearly take NOTHING to get the chalk on you or lipstick, or whatever is used. I can understand why one would do that, but I am really unsure of how important it is to do that. :idunno: I guess once in a while would be OK to get some measure of where a person is at. But I can see where that would be counter-productive if done too often.

Maybe someone can shed some more light on that approach.

Just thinking aloud on this.

Actually, it largely works the opposite way. A 3" blade can cut to the bone on a bare human forearm (Michael Janich demonstrates this with a simulated "arm" made of pork and dowel, with a plastic skin for resistance). Edged weapons have far more penetrating power than generally thought, and a point on a hard-tanged knife has no problem penetrating several layers of clothing.

In my opinion, this is primarily a factor when it comes to selecting techniques and postures that minimize the exposure of blood vessels. In mid-technique, getting cut isn't a factor. You have to defend yourself anyway and can't stop. If your technique is good you're more likely to minimize injury.

 

[Connovar]

There is actually one technique from taijitsu that passed what I call the "force recon test". It consists of going down to down to the basement with your 6 ft 2 active duty marine force recon brother in law. You give him a wooden tanto with him to attack full force and full speed his choice of slash or stab and you defend. If yoiu can get 90% success then the technique is a keeper. It still doesnt factor in the surprise and adrenaline stress factor which occurs when really facing a knife but its a start.

 

[arnisador]

Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...

www.sharkee.com

www.virtualblade.com

I really like the Sharkees a lot; I use them for general training. Some of my sparring partners prefer that I use wood because the Sharkees are too hard! I haven't tried the Virtual Blade marking system. I know that No Lie comes recommended.

 

[arnisador]

Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.

Agreed. If your techniques work 90% of the time against a knifer, your opponent isn't trying.

 

[Bigshadow]

I see it as more of a gauge, not an everyday thing.

I was thought that is how it should be applied.

Also, you have to make sure that the participants don't start "point sparring." This type of drill is often best after you have shown several static techniques.

It can see how that can easily happen.

 

[Bigshadow]

Budget alternatives to No-Lie Blades...

www.sharkee.com

www.virtualblade.com

Thanks for the links.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Try it with someone you do not have a hierarchical relationship with.

Do I seem to be a guy who gets along with authorities very well?

 

[Connovar]

Agreed. If your techniques work 90% of the time against a knifer, your opponent isn't trying.

I am talking about the attacker who rushes in attacking with thrust or slash, not a person who feints etc etc. A different technique is required for the knife fighter who stays just out of range darting in and out with the blade which is not a common attack. Most people with a knife who want to kill you just rush in and stab and slice the crap out of you. My friends who experienced this were bouncers.

On the other hand I knew a merc with a 2nd degree in some MA but obviously because of what he did for living oriented his unarmed skills heavily to the practical end. He was working in the phillipines when someone sent a trained knifer after him. He tried blocking the strikes with his hands and forearms and ending up getting some nasty cuts and lost part of one his fingers because the guys was so fast. However he changed tactics, knocked him down with a kick and then brained him with a chair.

I had a guy once pull a knife on me and demanded money. Like a typical 27 y.o. who just got another shodan two weeks before I was dumb and didnt run when I had the opportunity. However he was surprised by a hard side kick to his bladder and he went down. That followed up by a soccer kick to his head finished the issue. In retrospect I should have run or given him the money but ego got in the way. Hopefully I have learned something since then.

 

[Bigshadow]

I am talking about the attacker who rushes in attacking with thrust or slash, not a person who feints etc etc. A different technique is required for the knife fighter who stays just out of range darting in and out with the blade which is not a common attack. Most people with a knife who want to kill you just rush in and stab and slice the crap out of you. My friends who experienced this were bouncers.

For the most part, I would agree that someone wanting to kill you is going to come in and try to get some. Then there are the types who spend time in prison who use a knife with feints. Based on what we saw from the guard, their attacks look similar to boxing but instead of punches it is jabs or slices with a shank or knife. I would suspect that one could encounter this on the streets. Evidently, boxing is popular in prison and many seem to use that as a basis for their shank attacks. Just another something to consider.

However, the principles in dealing with the different attacks are all the same.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Then there are the types who spend time in prison who use a knife with feints.

...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.

 

[Connovar]

...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.

I would very much concur. Our wallets and/or pride arent worth price.

 

[Bigshadow]

...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.

True. He did show some of that, but mostly it was fast and violent (gonna get some) type of attack. The weapon wasn't displayed at all, it is concealed up until the attacker pounces. What he demonstrated was that they appear to actually pounce on you ( getting very close, almost like hugging/holding) and simultaneously jabbing vitals. He did say it was more jabs than slashes.

Sorry if I made it sound as if it was alot of feints and such. Not enough caffine at that time this morning. I am better now

Don't get me wrong, I am not engaging if I have a chance to escape.

 

[eyebeams]

Do I seem to be a guy who gets along with authorities very well?

Within your art? Definitely.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I know what you're implying, and the problem is non-existent. I think I'm one of few who have walked out in the middle of a training session at a seminar due to the Judan + in command being a jerk to several people including myself.

 

[Don Roley]

...and as such, if he displays his weapon before being at bad-breath-distance, he is offering you the possibility of escape. I suggest you take it rather than trying to engage.

Maybe he his, maybe he isn't.

The act of pulling out a weapon and showing it to the other party is known as brandishing. Sometimes people do it to get you to comply with their demands for money or to get you to leave. There is such a thing as someone upping the stakes to that level in what is essentially a tiff about turf. And of course, sometimes they leave a way of escaping by accident.

In those cases, either get the hell out of there or give him your wallet.

But as men (and all the participents so far seem to be men) we have a blind spot. We don't think about someone trying to rape us. Rapists will sometimes brandish a weapon in order to get their victim to co-operate. In cases like that, many women are saying that they would fight rather than be raped- especially if it looks like the guy may kill them afterward anyway.

And there are cases of sadistic types pulling out a knife to show you before they attack. If you can run, great. Otherwise... the following story may be of use.

I meet a lot of people in the Bujinkan who have come to train here in Japan. One guy, who I will not name, had a situation where someone pulled a knife out and told him how he was going to gut him like a pig. (Or something of that nature.) The Bujinkan guy does not wait for him to finish his speech and does a textbook tanto dori on the hand holding the knife. Kaboom! He had been studying another art at the same time as Bujinkan and made the choice to concentrate on Bujinkan at that moment.

It is funny because my teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, often teaches us tanto dori but tells us it is there to mainly learn skills since people will not leave the knife out there after trying to stab you. When I heard the story I could hardly wait until the next time we were out drinking to tell him how someone did leave a knife out long enough for it to work- but not as a thrust.

Food for thought and training.

 

[eyebeams]

I know what you're implying, and the problem is non-existent. I think I'm one of few who have walked out in the middle of a training session at a seminar due to the Judan + in command being a jerk to several people including myself.

It all depends. The psychology of hierarchies is very, very powerful, and I do not personally believe that anyone is immune to it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If for example Nagato sensei tells me I'm an idiot for not being able to do something he has demonstrated, that's one thing I can tolerate. If a Western shidoshi tells me to pick up my dropped diaphragm and get going because I've stepped off the mat to get some water, or KO's me for no apparent reason...that's something else, and not something I'd just let slide. So you can stop your insinuating right now, you don't know me.

 

[Kreth]

Even better, how about you both drop it and get back on topic...