Knife Fighting

[Cryozombie]

Well, what I was getting at was more the blade type. True, with a good hilt and grip, you should be ok, but the majority of folders don't have a stabbing point.

Jeff

Dunno... the CRKT I carry has a Tanto Point... I think that's suitable for stabbing...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Dunno... the CRKT I carry has a Tanto Point... I think that's suitable for stabbing...

Tanto points...:uhoh: :barf:

 

[Cryozombie]

Tanto points...:uhoh: :barf:

Thats helpful.

Thanks.

Why :barf: ?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just teasing. Sorry. :asian: Don't like americanized tanto blades, that's all. I really don't buy into all this talk of their superior piercing ability.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

I know the guy that has this web site and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.

I like Animal's thoughts, and agree that you most likely will not meet someone a knife duel.

I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.

I agree that your approach is more realistic from my experience.

As to the US, and or Michigan, I do nto teach Knife fighting per se, I teach some basic knife defenses, and then when trusted students have been around a while then our club will work the other knife work with them.

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

I realize you said no FMA, and I have only trained FMA with the exception of just my street experience before and during. From my experience when I did have a knife on me and was facing one, I never had the time to get the knife out. I had to react empty handed or with what was in my hands already.

If you believe this non-value added, then let me know and we can remove it.
:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

Just teasing. Sorry. :asian: Don't like americanized tanto blades, that's all. I really don't buy into all this talk of their superior piercing ability.

Ah. I dunno about that. I just liked the smooth, switchblade-like action of the one handed operation of that knife... I can deploy it FAST when I am removing it from my pocket.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ah. I dunno about that. I just liked the smooth, switchblade-like action of the one handed operation of that knife... I can deploy it FAST when I am removing it from my pocket.

Spyderhole + AXIS + ziptie = greased lightning.:jedi1: :ultracool

 

[Don Roley]

Another comment... IMO, folders are not suited for stabbing motions, they're more useful for slicing or slashing cuts. A bit grim, but I'd be more concerned with a stab, that my blade would end up embedded in bone...

Jeff

I think my Delica would do pretty well by stabbing. I am not extra worried about it getting caught up on bone. Not more than any single edged knife. But if it does, I have a move that basically pushes off with the non-weapon hand to pull it out. Never tried in myself and have to trust it works on faith, don't you know.

I realize you said no FMA, and I have only trained FMA with the exception of just my street experience before and during. From my experience when I did have a knife on me and was facing one, I never had the time to get the knife out. I had to react empty handed or with what was in my hands already.

If you believe this non-value added, then let me know and we can remove it.

No, it has value. I am just not interested in discussing other arts training drills or techniques. I follow the threads in other sections for that.

And your point that you can't get to the knife in a fight is one I have heard elsewhere. Marc talks about it a lot. In fact, I think he made the point that if you can get to your knife before the fight, you are looked at as if you had the chance to run- legally speaking.

But there have been times when I have pulled a knife without anyone knowing. Maybe it is just because I am paranoid and want it in my hand before trouble starts. I still remember a case a few weeks after 9-11 when I thought two middle eastern guys were giving me dirty looks on the train. It may sound racist, but I wanted to put some distance between me and them without attracting attention. I moved away from them and to the door and got off at the next stop, moved down a few cars and got back on. The whole time I had the Delica opened and hidden. Not easy in the middle of a train.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing to remember with a folder is that it is not one solid piece of steel! Because of this fact and that it folds back in upon itself if you stab you
do have a chance of the balde coming back into it's folded position. If you have
ever tested what happens when you hit something hard you will know exactly
what I mean! Now this does not mean that you can't stab but that you need
to have a certain grip if you are going to stab. Further, Folders are genuinely
designed to slash with rather than stab! My advice is just be cautious with
stabbing and get some serious instruction before you engage someone with
your folder! Oh and by the way, I have not found a folder that I have tested
that did not have problems when hitting something hard. (Like Bone) Maybe not every time, but eventually they all responded by folding back in on themselves!
Just my two cents. Hope it helps!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Don Roley]

One thing to remember with a folder is that it is not one solid piece of steel! Because of this fact and that it folds back in upon itself if you stab you
do have a chance of the balde coming back into it's folded position.

I have heard similar statements before. But I wonder.....

I am looking at my Delica and I see that the set up is pretty solid. There is a section of metal as thick as the blade that snaps into place right behind it when opened, so that there is a break but no difference in width and/or strength between it and a solid blade. I have seen other knives made in China and the mechanism that locks the blade in place can be almost paper thin.

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Don, not all folders are made equal are they! Clearly this is the
case with all tools. Some folders do a far better job than others but
clearly when you look at a folder it is designed as a utility knife for
carving, camping, woodwork, etc. and while some are geared for
personal protection they clearly are a better design for a slashing, cutting
motion than stabbing! Now I am not saying that you cannot stab, I'm
just saying that I probably would not do it unless I had no other option!
I have tested similar blades to the one you carry with the same type of
locking mechanism and invariably they will fail! Not always and clearly
not all folders are made equal but look at the design, they are designed
for cutting, slashing and not stabbing! Thats my two cents, you do not have
to agree just think about what I am saying!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have heard similar statements before. But I wonder.....

I am looking at my Delica and I see that the set up is pretty solid. There is a section of metal as thick as the blade that snaps into place right behind it when opened, so that there is a break but no difference in width and/or strength between it and a solid blade. I have seen other knives made in China and the mechanism that locks the blade in place can be almost paper thin.

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.

I have a folder, that I keep just to show that it locks, yet when gripped and ready to be used, the force of the grip pushed in the lock and oopps the knife can be closed. I had this close on me in a live blade drill, I did years ago.

Inspect your blade, and see how you grip it when you are not thinking about it only reacting. Then stop and see if the blade is till functional.


As to your getting away from possible problems, this is the first step in self defense. Recognizing thare is a possible problem. The second is tryng to avoid it. The knife was there based upon your evaluation of the situation and that there were two or possible more. Check you local laws, multiple attackers many times is considered deadly force, which allows for equal use of force i return, asuming you have tried to move away first.

As to Marc's comment, in many states if you can get to your knife and do not get away then you are looked at as both being the attackers, and no one is the defender. Yet, check the local and state laws, to make sure.

:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.

Don...

Ive had it happen quit a bit just F-ing around with cheap "Frost Cutlery" folders... Ive never tested it with my CRKT, I've never wanted to stab something just for SnG with my good blade.

 

[Don Roley]

You know,
I have noticed that most people (even the non-ninjutsu practicioners) have been talking as if a folding knife is the standard, normal knife to have.

That seens logical to me. My Delica is a tool. I have never spilled blood with it, but boy do the boxes tremble with far when I walk by.

In Japan, my weapon carry choices are almost none. If it is meant as a weapon, I cannot carry it. Even pepper spray and electronic stun devices are being debated for banning. Some bad people used them to rob and/or rape people and so the politicians are taking the easy route of just banning them.

I figure that if I get stopped with a Delica, I barely have an excuse to carry it. I do expect trouble if the police really want it. But it is so much better than anything else.

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.

 

[hicho]

Interesting discussion.

But what about the folders that are weapons?

In Ohio, a small folder pocket knife is not considered a weapon unless used as such (basically, you won't get in trouble when carrying a folder unless you use it against someone creating bodily harm). The trouble comes in with something that looks like a straight blade, even if it is a folder*. Some pocket/utility knives have "the look" of a large tanto when open. If a civilian or officer becomes fearful of it, then you'll have issues. In my experiences, most Kershaw, Al Mar, or Spyderco folders (with or without clips) are fine.

Two days ago at a local Mexican lunch restuarant (Chipotle), a customer came in and was wearing a 10" bowie knife out in the open. He was a construction worker, and quite a few people's eyes got mighty big because of it. Had his order not been carry-out, the old "inducing a panic" syndrome might have caused the authorities to show.

As for thrusting vs cutting, well, that's just part of "knowing your tool".

(*The above info can be validated via ORC (Ohio Revised Code) 2923.11, .12, and .20.)

Take care and train safe,

Jeff O.

 

[Kreth]

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.

Actually, my Pro-Lite does have a tanto tip, and yes, I use it primarily as a tool for work. The yokote is excellent for precision cutting.
In the US, laws vary from state to state on carry lengths and restrictions. In NY where I live, there is no maximum length set in stone as of the current year.

Jeff

 

[Rich Parsons]

In Japan, my weapon carry choices are almost none. If it is meant as a weapon, I cannot carry it. Even pepper spray and electronic stun devices are being debated for banning. Some bad people used them to rob and/or rape people and so the politicians are taking the easy route of just banning them.

Many people from the USA, could not understand why I would walk around in cities in Japan by myself at night, and not worry. I knew that weapons were not the norm for the culture. And, I also do it here in the USA as well. Very good points about cultural differences.

I figure that if I get stopped with a Delica, I barely have an excuse to carry it. I do expect trouble if the police really want it. But it is so much better than anything else.

Yes, This is true also in New Zealand, and other countries I have traveled in.

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.

As an Engineer, who travels, I explained a half serrated edge and tanto tip blade, as my personal choice for safety in accidents. If another engineer was trapped in a vehicle I would want to be able to cut the seat belts to get them out. This worked in Arizona, when I was called out of line when they ex-rayed by checked bags. Most of the Police and EMT's present also had a serrated edged blade for such usage. Now will this excuse work for just anyone? No, it barely worked for an engineer (* just does not put fear into people does it *), who was wearing business causual clothing, and had a small possible reason for the usage. Lots of questions and wasted time.


I did have an officer take a Balisong form my trunk, as he thought it was ued only for fighting, and did not beleive I used it for FMA training. I went straight to the Police station and requested it back. The shift supervisor called him, and we all had a discussion. Once it was determined teh knife was in a bag, in the trunk, and the bag contained all my other training implements and clothes, and I had just come from teaching a class, I was able to get my knife back.

Lots of issues, and lots of time. Even if you know the local rules of operation and or laws, you still do not argue with the local authorities, on site. You either go get a lawyer, or go up the line of command. Just be prepared for the time and issues and questions they will ask you.

:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

I carry my CRKT cuz like it says on the blade you only have 1*

(Thats 1 *** to risk)

Its a folding knife... so its only a weapon if I state I intend to use it as such... unless I am downtown chicago. I carry it for whatever purpose I need it for... even if its my own defense.

I used to carry a Kusarifundo tucked into my belt and back pocket... looked like a standard biker's walletchain, until someone commented when I took my wallet out of my pocket the chain was still in there and asked what it really was... I stopped that practice after that... THAT was a weapon, not my little CRKT

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I for one like my new bandana plus from Survivalsheath...besides the trapping aspect, load it up with some coins or other heavy material and you have basically the same weapon as Steven Seagal had in the infamous "sock with a pool ball" scene.:ultracool

 

[Don Roley]

This worked in Arizona, when I was called out of line when they ex-rayed by checked bags.

Whoah! Are you saying that you had a knife in your checked bags, and they had a probelm with that? Not carry- on, checked bagage? And it was a knife, cutlery... a few peices of metal in a particular form and not anything that contained powders, accelerants, etc?

I have only traveled back to America handfull of times since 9-11. I had not noticed things were that nutty. Or am I missing the point yet again?