Knife Fighting Lies

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Once again I must point out the Obi Wan Kenobi principle, which states "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of veiw."

I like Animals work, much of it rings true to situations I have been in but no one has a lock on the truth and he is trying to sell his POV, as many of us are.

He offers food for thought, that is all, you must decide if it rings true in your world.

Even he has pointed out that there is but one Earth but about 6 Billion different worlds on earth. It means we all live ion our own world and have our own POV.

I have never agreed 100% across the board with anyone, if we are at 90% your a master in my eyes, 80% I want to learn from you, 70% you know your stuff, 60% your on a good track and 50 and under whatever.

Combat is to varried and dynamic to place to many hard fast rules to.
No one has seen it all, i dont care where you bounced, what army you were in, how long you were a cop, how bad a place you grew up in was, no one has a monopoly on the truth of combat.

That's why this is martial art and not martial science.

That's why that quote has stayed with me since i was a child and it has served me well to remember it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Once again I must point out the Obi Wan Kenobi principle, which states "Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of veiw."

I like Animals work, much of it rings true to situations I have been in but no one has a lock on the truth and he is trying to sell his POV, as many of us are.

He offers food for thought, that is all, you must decide if it rings true in your world.

Even he has pointed out that there is but one Earth but about 6 Billion different worlds on earth. It means we all live ion our own world and have our own POV.

I have never agreed 100% across the board with anyone, if we are at 90% your a master in my eyes, 80% I want to learn from you, 70% you know your stuff, 60% your on a good track and 50 and under whatever.

Combat is to varried and dynamic to place to many hard fast rules to.
No one has seen it all, i dont care where you bounced, what army you were in, how long you were a cop, how bad a place you grew up in was, no one has a monopoly on the truth of combat.

That's why this is martial art and not martial science.

That's why that quote has stayed with me since i was a child and it has served me well to remember it.

And, just to help make your point here, that's not entirely true either. There are a number of old Japanese systems that definitively refer to themselves as "martial sciences", the Kashima Shinryu springs immediately to mind.....

 

[chinto]

OK, I agree with most if not all in the article. especially the part about "IT IS NOT GOING TO BE A FIGHT, BUT IT IS AN ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION!"

ask any cop or EMT about knife wounds and people who ended up in an altercation involving one. Most if not all will tell you they didn't even know a knife was involved till they got cut once or more! and the wounds are not pretty, and are very much a dangerous or, often lethal thing.

hell I know there is a knife involved.. NIKIJITSU TIME .. run! If you cant run then you better look to kill or come as close to it as you can as fast as you can. People who use knives are serious about killing you and usually try to make sure you do not survive at all!

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

And, just to help make your point here, that's not entirely true either. There are a number of old Japanese systems that definitively refer to themselves as "martial sciences", the Kashima Shinryu springs immediately to mind.....

They can call themselves whatever they wish, but unless you use scientific methods of testing techniques versus attacks your doing an art.

There are so many varibles in a fight that it cant help but be art.

Sex is art, War is art, music is art, medicine is science.

But again they can call it whatever they wish and I have no problem with that, splitting hairs does not seem to be a profitable exercise.

Shugyo!

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, see the Kashima Shinryu would say that they apply scientific principles in the execution of their martial approach. Of course, this is "scientific" in a Japanese meaning here, and an old one at that, so take it that way.

But, for the record, if a technique doesn't fit their scientific principles, it doens't make it as part of the Ryu. These start with basic principles of physics and leverage, refered to by geometric shapes and concepts applied against each other, so every type of approach/attack can be defined by it's geopetric shape, and the correct geometric shape to defeat it applied. These concepts are "A Wedge becomes a Circle", "A Circle becomes a Straight Line", and "A Straight Line becomes a Wedge".

Basically translated, that means that if an attack is coming in at an angle, go around it. If it is coming around at you, go straight in at it. If it is coming straight in at you, apply an angle for leverage. Examples of it can be seen in their performance here:

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This is an example of something that classes itself as a "martial science", and the application of the term. Whether or not everyone agrees with it is another matter, of course....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is some applied science to the rear naked choke!

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[Aiki Lee]

Well medicine isn't an exact science, that's why docotrs "practice" medicine as opposed to "doing" medicine.

Art and science can coincide, me thinks. Using principles like leverage and center of gravity, and the whole F=m*a are in MAs but are rooted in science. I tend to see art and science coinciding together, why separate them?

 

[Hollywood1340]

If they are going to apply science to it, why are they wearing traditional uniforms and fighting with swords?

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't understand that question. Should they be wearing lab coats and fighting with microscopes?

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I don't understand that question. Should they be wearing lab coats and fighting with microscopes?

No they should be wearing what they normally wear and training unarmed and with weapons you can actually walk down the street with.

But I am about art so I do spend time working with swords because it has tranference to common objects, build attributes and in my house what looks like a Testosterone decoration can be used to dispatch the unwanted if I am nearer to it than my firearms.

Good points thought, there are alot of science in martial arts.
Physics, Geometry, Physiology, Psychology.

Position, Posture, Power, Physiology and Psychology, the 5 P's of self defense and close combat.

 

[Chris Parker]

If they are going to apply science to it, why are they wearing traditional uniforms and fighting with swords?

Er, what?

I don't understand that question. Should they be wearing lab coats and fighting with microscopes?

Agreed.

No they should be wearing what they normally wear and training unarmed and with weapons you can actually walk down the street with.

Again, I've got to say, "what?" How is that a criteria at all?

All they are talking about is the application of scientific principles to their expression of combative mechanics, there is no requirement for their to even be a modern context, and if you're dealing with a Koryu system (such as the Kashima Shinryu above), what they're wearing is what they normally wear, and the weaponry is completely appropriate. We are not dealing with a modern "self defence" system here, so such ideas are completely out of place.

Really, the argument there is thoroughly irrelevant. You're looking at the idea of science changing to meet the times, wheras the reality is that the science is constantly tested to ensure that it remains applicable to it's context. In that regard, the Kashima Shinryu constantly ensures that the techniques are correct to the principles of the art.

But I am about art so I do spend time working with swords because it has tranference to common objects, build attributes and in my house what looks like a Testosterone decoration can be used to dispatch the unwanted if I am nearer to it than my firearms.

Hmm, but the question would then be what is guiding the sword techinques that you are using? I'd be willing to bet that it's more to do with science (correct application of force, angle, weight transference, maintenance of weaponry, timing, and so on), rather than art (creative or spontaneous performance based on trained skills). Your expression of it is art, but the system (if legit, or real in any way) will be based more in science. One of the big differences between an art and science is that the science can be tested, the art is subjective. So if you can test the techniques (looking for openings, practical use of resources, applied power etc), it's more science than art, no matter what is being worn or used (that really only comes into it when looking at the context of the system itself).

To contrast, here is a "system" based in little more than fantasy, and therefore more "creative" than science (real, solid, testable principles).

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Good points thought, there are alot of science in martial arts.
Physics, Geometry, Physiology, Psychology.

Martial arts are the expressions of the science. The two are inextricably linked in that way.

Position, Posture, Power, Physiology and Psychology, the 5 P's of self defense and close combat.

Combat and self defence being different, I'd agree with the caveat that the exact meaning for each is different in each context.

 

[Aiki Lee]

So the guy in that vid claims he studies an art that is more than 18 generations old whihc should make it a koryu. Based on conversations I've had with you (Chris), Bruno, and Ken Morgan he does not seem to be demonstrating skills associated with older methods of swordsmanship meaning what he is demonstrating is quite new. I'm confused by his pronunciation of jutsu as well. If he was experienced you think he would learn to say it right.

I particuarly liked his little ballet twirl towards the end. I wonder what the purpose of it was.

I'm very poor at visualization, so without a partner it is difficult for me to determine why he is performing his cuts in that way in those directions. If they are kata with a specific purpose I do not see it.

 

[Chris Parker]

You may notice that I described the clip as "a 'system' based in little more than fantasy", that may have been a clue as to what you were looking at there...

For the record, he hasn't studied an art in it's 18th Generation, it's made up in the year 2000, he uses terms that are rather bizarre (personal favourite being "Dai Soke".... er, "big head of the family"? Is there more than one head of the family?), and what he does has no practical use in terms of swordsmanship whatsoever (he's lucky to not cut his own arm off a number of times!). Add to that the fact that this clip should be a "how NOT to do a demo" example, the number of things around him, the relative closeness of the viewers, it's just terrible.

That said, there's no fraudbusting here, so I recommend visiting this link, and following the ones associated: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42621

 

[dowan50]

1. Rank, title, Historian, owner of club means nothing in a knife fight. Statistics have shown that a majority of even those who call themselves professional MA generally choke given a match up of one man who has injured or killed people with a knife and people who have cut and been cut before. My pet peeve is instructors giving people false hope of surviving or not being injured will get them killed. There is no such thing as not being cut in a knife fight.

2. Survivability, I have a lot of scars and have lost some considerable blood in the day to the point I felt no fear of the pain or blood then one night in the dark go a sever cut to left hand artery when the light came on I started shock and knew I was a goner if I passed out I immediately bent down and tensed my stomach enough get past it so I could put direct pressure on the would eventually got to hospital 3 hours of surgery. Your first option if you do not have a gun get anything between you and them and leave the scene unless you have no choice fight or die.

3. Running? In the early 70's I had a chance to meet some Korean knife commando's they picked up any knife we gave them and stuck it to the handle at a pretty good distance in some pretty substantial wood. I though to my self the last thing I would want to do is turn and run from one of these guys. Then this last year I read an article regarding a North Korean commando squad that infiltrated the South to do harm and the group that fought them with knives said that those who stayed and fought survived but those who became afraid and ran died?

4. Training worked with some very good people Dr. Park who it was said in the 90's was rated #1 or #2 in weapons showed some interesting points first knife on knife and hand to knife. first knife to knife do not go for a hit on the others body but first cut the hand of the other holding the knife now you have he does not. I found in general with any of the good knife masters that body position generally protected or gave as little exposure to vital areas of your bod as possible. Horrified reading a Black Belt magazine some guy showing self defense against attacker standing full frontal just doing basic blocks he would have risked conception areas or major arteries in a heart beat. Real life not all blocks hit now digital movies make it even worse to the public giving the total illusion that every single block hits its mark and works.

just my two cents guys

 

[Aiki Lee]

Although I agree one should expect to be cut during a confrontation with an edged weapon it is not totally impossible to not be cut. It is unlikely and shouldn't be the expectation, but its not impossible.

On your third comment, since the majority of people who are attacked with knives are attacked by untrained people, running is the best option.

 

[Master Dan]

Although I agree one should expect to be cut during a confrontation with an edged weapon it is not totally impossible to not be cut. It is unlikely and shouldn't be the expectation, but its not impossible.

On your third comment, since the majority of people who are attacked with knives are attacked by untrained people, running is the best option.

The key here is to understand the situation which boy some times just jumps up unexpected. Exactly in most cases run an put something between you and the attacker if at all possible but my main complaint is expecting unqualified people to disarm an attacker case in point my wife is a nurse in one of the highest rates of nurses being atacked on the job police don't even show up for hours when called sustaining injuries and quiting.

The ex head janitor comes in to teach a security program now instituted by corporate that was a total joke especially the verbal commands all the nurses laughing saying bs related to dealing with people high on alcolhol or drugs but worse yet promoting nurses to disarm knife attackers using complex Karate moves??

 

[Aiki Lee]

I know the frustration. My mom is a nurse and their "safety training" for dangerous patients is the most ridiculous and dangerous idiocy I have seen in a long time. The person teaching it had the bright idea to just go limp when someone is trying to choke you. Play opossum! What a great strategy...

 

[elwin]

I yield to the 21 foot rule knowing that if someone wants to cut you, you will be cut. The only real thing is how bad, and can you retaliate enough, in time.

I Agree, you will be cut there is no doubt about it, unless you are just lucky. I hope by retaliate you mean - ATTACK WITH THE UTMOST FORCE! If you are just going to block the attacks, you will end up just blocking and blocking to your inevitable death. He is not going to GIVE you a chance to retaliate, you have to take it. That is why I keep saying, if he is set on using this knife on you, your best chance of surviving is if you can manage to turn the table on him and take control of the situation away from him.

Remember, during the fight you won't really feel you are being cut, you will only feel it afterwards. I've been cut with a knife, a broken beer bottle, and I've been shot, never have I felt anything until everything was long over. I think it's got alot to do with all the adrenaline and fear in your body, as well as the chaos of the situation that overwhelms everything.

So take the fight to him if there is no way out. He is going to cut you anyway, you have to stop him from killing you! At that moment you can't dare to be scared of the weapon - your life is at stake (That is assuming it is. You've given him what he asked, you tried to reason with him, there is no way of escaping this etc...).

It does'nt matter if he's knife is already drawn OR if he already started attacking, while there is still life in you, you can still badly injure him. You're focus should not be on the knife by not wanting to get sliced, rather, your focus should immediately be on redirecting the weapon to minimize your injuries, while at the same time tying to crush your attacker and injure him as quick as possible.

 

[teekin]

I know the frustration. My mom is a nurse and their "safety training" for dangerous patients is the most ridiculous and dangerous idiocy I have seen in a long time. The person teaching it had the bright idea to just go limp when someone is trying to choke you. Play opossum! What a great strategy...

Ohhhh this is because we are not suppose to injure the patients. Just gentley subdue them until we can coax them to behave. :barf: Yahhhhh! Screw that Noise. There is a damn good reason to learn A & P, It helps you to remember how to effectively apply compliance holds. Move it or loose it. :whip:

Lori

 

[Josh Oakley]

I Agree, you will be cut there is no doubt about it, unless you are just lucky. I hope by retaliate you mean - ATTACK WITH THE UTMOST FORCE! If you are just going to block the attacks, you will end up just blocking and blocking to your inevitable death. He is not going to GIVE you a chance to retaliate, you have to take it. That is why I keep saying, if he is set on using this knife on you, your best chance of surviving is if you can manage to turn the table on him and take control of the situation away from him.

Remember, during the fight you won't really feel you are being cut, you will only feel it afterwards. I've been cut with a knife, a broken beer bottle, and I've been shot, never have I felt anything until everything was long over. I think it's got alot to do with all the adrenaline and fear in your body, as well as the chaos of the situation that overwhelms everything.

So take the fight to him if there is no way out. He is going to cut you anyway, you have to stop him from killing you! At that moment you can't dare to be scared of the weapon - your life is at stake (That is assuming it is. You've given him what he asked, you tried to reason with him, there is no way of escaping this etc...).

It does'nt matter if he's knife is already drawn OR if he already started attacking, while there is still life in you, you can still badly injure him. You're focus should not be on the knife by not wanting to get sliced, rather, your focus should immediately be on redirecting the weapon to minimize your injuries, while at the same time tying to crush your attacker and injure him as quick as possible.

Funny you should say that. My last fight in high school, all I did was block and block, and the guy ran out of steam, then walked away in a huff. Would I do that in every situation? No, of course not. But it was the proper response in that situation with that person.

Don't get me wrong, if the situation calls for it, I'm all for badly injuring someone or even killing them, if that's what is required. However, my main objection to your points is that it seems to be a one-dimensional mindset.

The situation always matters. Mr. Vancise put the point succinctly: what works in one situation may get you killed in another. Your post seems to ignore the aspects of the attacker's intentions, skill, and physical ability. Trying to end the fight as quickly as possible MAY save your live... or it MAY be exactly what your attacker WANTS you to do. It really depends.

Picking up an equalizer could work. Running could work. Crying and giving him your money could work. Redirection could work. Going all HULK SMASH could work. Busting a proverbial cap in his proverbial fifth point of contact could work. Looking all pathetic and sad while your buddy comes behind him with a chair could work.

But it all depends on context.