KMA/CMA historical connections?

[rmclain]

The only problem with saying someone studied Quan Fa (chaun fa) is that it is not a style of Chinese martial arts anymore than Kung Fu is. It is a generic term not a CMA style. Saying Quan-fa instructor is saying basiacally the same as Kung Fu teacher or Wushu Sifu and it leads you right back to what style of CMA did he study/train.

Also Mongolian sifu could be teaching Mongolia wrestling too so again back to what style did any of them train in China?

Yes, this is true about using the name "Chuan-fa." I'm just passing along what Yoon Byung-in's family members that lived with Yoon Byung-in called it. But, none of them were martial art students. Yoon Byung-in called his dojang "Kwon Bup Bu," when he established it in Seoul.

What we've been passed is not a type of wrestling, though there are leg sweeps and grabs in the forms and two-person drills.

I believe the forms to be northern except for the form "Palgi Kwon." It is very rooted and "ground based" (if this makes sense) indicating a southern influence, while the other forms are more "mobile." Grandmaster Kim Soo also indicated Palgi Kwon is a southern chuan-fa form.

R. McLain

 

[Steel Tiger]

You're information is incorrect here.

You're confusing Hwang Gi and Yi Wonguk. Hwang Gi is the one who traveled to Manchuria, studied a Chinese translation of a karate manual (we are not sure who wrote that manual), studied Changquan and Taijiquan, and named his first style Hwasudo.

Yeah I grabbed that information from a number of sites and it always seemed to be different. A site I found on the history of Chang Moo Kwan says that it was Lee Nam Suk who studied a Chinese translation of Funakoshi's book.

It does exemplify a significant problem with the study of history in general. TKD history is only about sixty years old and already information is being fused and moved and omitted to suit various purposes or just as a result of lassitude.

 

[Errant108]

I believe the forms to be northern except for the form "Palgi Kwon." It is very rooted and "ground based" (if this makes sense) indicating a southern influence, while the other forms are more "mobile." Grandmaster Kim Soo also indicated Palgi Kwon is a southern chuan-fa form.

R. McLain

八騎拳/Palgigwon/Eighth Cavalry Fist is likely Northern. I have not been able to find it in other Chinese systems. This is also complicated by the fact that it is pronounced Bajiquan in Mandarin, which, while using different characters, is also the phonetic name of another, much more famous CMA style.

 

[SageGhost83]

I find it interesting that Palgi Kwon sounds a lot like Pangai Noon. Don't ask me why, maybe its just becuase I am sleep typing again :idunno:. What is the possibility that some Korean style names are direct translations of their Chinese counterparts?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The Chinese characters 拳法 are pronounced:

Cantonese: Kyunfaat
Mandarin: Quanfa
Korean: Gwonbeop
Japanese: Kempo

Thank You but I was not looking for Quanfa but the actual characters that would have been for the style studied. But I did not know the Cantonese or Korean for that so again thanks

Traditional Chinese is still used in Taiwan and Korea. I can only read traditional, not simplified.

True but let me explain, I am talking from a mainland perspective on this (I am not from mainland China but that is my association) if you are looking for a mainland connection to a Korean MA and it is pre-Mao it is likely any writing of this is in Traditional Chinese not simplified, unless someone on mainland had found something and translated it to simplified. This means that the majority of people on mainland, if it was in traditional, could not read it or could not understand it if they tried, unless they were older and literate or younger and trained.

Also doesn’t Korea have its own writing system, or at least many of its characters are not traditional Chinese but indigenous to Korea, much like Japan which has both Chinese and Japanese characters. This can lead to some translation errors in Japan as well, particularly in the area of family names.

That's not a translation error. It's a regional accent or dialect. The characters and meanings stay the same.

That is correct it is not a translation error my bad. What I was getting at was the spoken word and the confusion that can occur when a word in say mandarin is spoken by a non-mandarin speaker. It is conceivable to the western ear, or non-Chinese speaker ear, that sanda and shanda can be interpreted as 2 different things. That is point I was trying to make.

Quanfa just means Chinese boxing. It just means that he was learning martial arts.

Yes which means he learned what CMA style? Quanfa is not a specific style to CMA it is rather generic. And it may be all you can go on they learned Quanfa and that is all. I believe Quanfa is also been translated as China fist and Fist Law as well

 

[Xue Sheng]

What we've been passed is not a type of wrestling, though there are leg sweeps and grabs in the forms and two-person drills.

I believe the forms to be northern except for the form "Palgi Kwon." It is very rooted and "ground based" (if this makes sense) indicating a southern influence, while the other forms are more "mobile." Grandmaster Kim Soo also indicated Palgi Kwon is a southern chuan-fa form.

R. McLain

But it could also point to Mongolian Wrestling or Shuaijiao as well. But if you have a master that says it is a Southern Quan fa form then it is very likely just that.

What does Palgi Kwon translate to in Mandarin?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Me again.... Sorry, I just read these

Hwang Gi is the one who traveled to Manchuria, studied a Chinese translation of a karate manual (we are not sure who wrote that manual), studied Changquan and Taijiquan, and named his first style Hwasudo.

This is good, do you know what style of taijiquan and or is there a video link to someone doing Hwasudo?

Also was this in Manchuria and/or Jilin?

And lastly what years are we talking about?

八騎拳/Palgigwon/Eighth Cavalry Fist is likely Northern. I have not been able to find it in other Chinese systems. This is also complicated by the fact that it is pronounced Bajiquan in Mandarin, which, while using different characters, is also the phonetic name of another, much more famous CMA style.

This too is very interesting but does this 八騎拳 actually translate to Bajiquan in Mandarin? Because my understanding is that this 八極拳 means Bajiquan. The second character is different between the two and I cannot get that second character translated until later today (have to ask the wife).

But regardless if there is a Bajiquan connection that is a very effective fighting

 

[cdunn]

Me again.... Sorry, I just read these



This is good, do you know what style of taijiquan and or is there a video link to someone doing Hwasudo?

Also was this in Manchuria and/or Jilin?

And lastly what years are we talking about?

By his claims, Kwan Jang Nim Hwang studied Yang Family Taijiquan and something called "Dam Toi Sip E Ro" while he worked at the Manchurian Railroad in '36 - '37. While I do not have links to video and am unable to go hunting for them now, someone else may, or may not, be able to supply videos of someone performing the TSD hyung So Rim Jang Kwan (Shaolin Chang Quan?) or Tae Guek Kwan (Taijiquan). These would be the firmest links available through the Moo Duk Kwan, but finding performances is difficult. To my understanding, which is insufficient, the hyung may even be functionally lost.

Unfortunately, Hwa Soo Do, as a school and style, did not last very long - The kwan jang nim was forced to adopt the more recognizable name of Tang Soo Do and the Japanese derived forms in order to attract students. While some of the CMA influences are probably visible in the Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and in Hwa Sun, they will be much more distant links, interpreted by a much older KJN Hwang, through the lens of the Moo Ye To Bo Tong Ji, a late Korean war manual that was, essentially, a scholarly survey.

Also, Xue Sheng, about Korean writing: Korean does indeed have its own phonetic alphabet system, hangeul, deliberately created in the 15th century. However, preceeding this system, the literate of Korea, mostly the noble classes, wrote in Chinese characters, the hanja. For some time, the popularity of the hangeul alphabet waxed and waned, from near universal literacy to legal banishment, with the most recent banshiment having been imposed by the Japanese, having made it illegal to teach Korean in 1938 and banishing publication in Korean in 1941. So, until very recently, there were still a lot of chinese characters knocking around in Korean publications.

In like with the above, does anyone know what chracters the first edition of KJN Hwang's book was published in?

 

[clfsean]

What's this mean?

Sip E Ro

 

[Xue Sheng]

What's this mean?

Sip E Ro

I don't really know but I just found this - Sip E Ro

 

[clfsean]

I don't really know but I just found this - Sip E Ro

Oh ok... 12 Road Tam Toi... I was hedging a bet that it was that but I have 0% of Korean langauge skills except to order more bulgogi & kimchi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh ok... 12 Road Tam Toi... I was hedging a bet that it was that but I have 0% of Korean langauge skills except to order more bulgogi & kimchi.

Which means you have better Korean language skills than I

 

[cdunn]

What's this mean?

Sip E Ro

From other contexts, I believe it to translate roughly as twelve steps or twelve paths. Sip E is certainly 12, it's the Ro that I'm a little iffy on.

 

[Errant108]

This too is very interesting but does this 八騎拳 actually translate to Bajiquan in Mandarin? Because my understanding is that this 八極拳 means Bajiquan. The second character is different between the two and I cannot get that second character translated until later today (have to ask the wife).

But regardless if there is a Bajiquan connection that is a very effective fighting

騎/Ji is Ji4, fourth tone. This is the character in the form we're discussing, Palgigwon.

極/Ji is Ji2, second tone, and translates as extreme. It is the same Ji as in Taijiquan. This is the Ji in the quanfa system known as Bajiquan, which in Korean would be pronounced Palgeukgwon in Korean.

 

[Errant108]

From other contexts, I believe it to translate roughly as twelve steps or twelve paths. Sip E is certainly 12, it's the Ro that I'm a little iffy on.

路/로/Ro means road or path.

 

[Xue Sheng]

騎/Ji is Ji4, fourth tone. This is the character in the form we're discussing, Palgigwon.

極/Ji is Ji2, second tone, and translates as extreme. It is the same Ji as in Taijiquan. This is the Ji in the quanfa system known as Bajiquan, which in Korean would be pronounced Palgeukgwon in Korean.

Thanks

The Mandarin for the Characters for Palgigwon ends up Ba-chi-quan and is referring to horses. Which is not the same as the Characters for Bajiquan (And since we are talking a possible Mongolian Sifu, horses are big time important in Mongolia)

This of course could cause a bit of a problem finding origin. Based on Characters it cannot be said with complete certainty that it has any connection with Bajiquan.

 

[rmclain]

This type of research is really important, but fairly difficult. It took 40 years to find the material contained in the article I wrote on Yoon Byung-in : http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf
Actually, Grandmaster Kim Soo did all of the work and I simply wrote it.

Grandmaster Kim Soo's teachers have contacted him and thanked him for doing the research all of these years finding this information. They said it should have been their job, but they didn't do it. Grandmaster Lee Nam-sok (Changmoo-Kwan) used to give Grandmaster Kim a hard time about trying to find Yoon Byung-in. He would say, "You never even met Yoon Byung-in, why do you care or want to find him?"

At this point, it may take someone studied in the forms and techniques preserved from Yoon Byung-in to travel to and live in China. They would need to start in the places Yoon Byung-in was known to live, and research from there. I doubt anyone here has the desire to do this since nobody is in the lineage of Yoon Byung-in.

There may be a bit of trouble since the forms may have been altered a bit from the original, I couldn't tell you. I do know that Grandmaster Kim Soo developed a friendship with Grandmaster Kim Ki-whang because Grandaster Kim Ki-whang saw Grandmaster Kim Soo demonstrate the form Jang Kwon over the years and approached him after a few demos. He said, "When I see you demonstrate Jang Kwon, you look exactly like my old friend Yoon Byung-in. I am very happy to see that." Both Grandmaster Kim Ki-whang and Yoon Byung-in were classmates at Nihon University and members of Toyama Kanken's karate club.

R. McLain