Ki is a hoax

[Sukerkin]

To ascribe such 'sensing' to something preternatural and unprovable is a very slippery slope to my mind.

Literal Blindfolding or simply not being looking in the direction of the 'threat' does not prevent you picking up cues from your environment to the existence of that threat. Humans are much better at this then we give ourselves credit for.

A good example of this is a study I read ages ago, about the ability of men to sense the prescence of women in a building (a warehouse if I remember rightly), without any of what we might term be 'normal' clues. In the end it was determined that the test subjects subconsciously picked up on natural scent molecules (the infamous phermones) as they were more 'accurate' when the women were around the peak of their fertility cycle.

 

[jks9199]

In my dojo we sometimes practice intention sensing.

Ocssionally we blindfold ourselves and throw rubber shuriken at each other to see if we can dodge them. Most people when properly focused can dodge 7 out of 10 and some can consistantly do 10 out of 10. We make sure we don't "time" each shuriken throw so it isn't a lucky guessing game.

I think there is a bit more to ki than just psychological influence, I tend to think that if a person can be "hit" by ki it is because they are sensing his will and intention and he realizes when that intention gets strong so there is a noticeable change they may cause the guy on the recieving end to react in different ways.

Just for fun -- try it sometime with someone not playing the game. Grab your little sister, neighbor, whatever... and see if it still works.

Lots of the time, when we can do something like that in a controlled environment, it's because everyone is subconsciously or unconsciously "playing along" and they're giving a cue that they aren't even aware of.

I'm not saying that's the case -- I'm just stating a possibility. Because I also know that you CAN pick up something that does tell you to move, react, whatever, to a threat that you can't explain how you sensed it.

 

[redantstyle]

I'm not saying that's the case -- I'm just stating a possibility. Because I also know that you CAN pick up something that does tell you to move, react, whatever, to a threat that you can't explain how you sensed it.

absolutely. it's just subconcious is all.

if something moves in your visual field, or makes an audible noise, then it can be detected. it might not upstream very far, but you definately get something that makes you trigger.

 

[K-man]

Let me ask you this: how do you define 'Ki' or 'Chi'? To an extent, such a discussion depends, to a great extent, on how the term is defined. Since you asked for skeptics to actually disprove the existence of ki, you'd have to define what it is that they're supposed to disprove.

Ki as simply being energy? Well, nobody would argue the existence of energy.

Ki as 'the force' as in an actual, real life equivalent to 'the force' in Star Wars? Different matter.

Since you say that you don't believe that it is biophysics, I assume that you must have at least some idea of what you think it is.

I say that I'm not a skeptic regarding Ki. But what do I mean when I use the term? Just so that, for the purposes of discussion, you know what page I am on:

I am referring to the phenomenon that in the west, is mostly used only in regard to the martial arts, which allows those who can manipulate it to seemingly be stronger, have more endurance, or be faster, or tougher when they make use of this 'phenomenon.'

I define it as the energy within the human body, and the control of it allows us to maximize our efforts by using that energy more efficiently. A simplistic definition, but that is my essential belief on the subject.

So my question to you is, what page are you on in this regard?
*****
Edit: Regarding the topic of your thread, I would like to respond to that as well. No, I don't believe that Ki (or Chi, Qi, or whatever other terms are extant for the same thing) is a hoax.

I do believe that unscrupulous and/or self deluded individuals perpetrate the hoax regarding their abilities as related to Ki and their ability to manipulate it.
*****

Let me ask you this: how do you define 'Ki' or 'Chi'? To an extent, such a discussion depends, to a great extent, on how the term is defined. Since you asked for skeptics to actually disprove the existence of ki, you'd have to define what it is that they're supposed to disprove.

As I said before, with all apologies because this thread has developed in a way I didn't envisage, I didn't define anything as it was an invitation for people to fight among themselves.
I honestly do not know what ki is. I don't believe it is something that can be measured with a multimeter or any other scientific instrument. I don't believe it is mystical or magical. I don't believe its use involves trickery, except in the sense that we may be using our mind to confuse the mind of our opponent. I don't believe it is involved with hypnosis or suggestion but I am willing to accept its use could be related. In each of these instances one mind is influencing another. I don't believe it involves levitation and I don't believe anyone could influence an inanimate object with ki. So what does this leave? To me, it is a force, call it a mind force if that makes people more comfortable, that can be directed. Internally it can make us stonger and harder to move. Think unbendable arm and lowered centre. Used against an opponent it can unsettle him to the extent that he loses the will to resist. Used in conjunction with pps it enhances the effect of the technique. Is it energy, well it seems that it is in some circumstances, but it is a 'mind energy' rather than the energy we think of in a conventional sense. 'Star wars', ??? a bit 'out there' for me, not anywhere near my experiences.

The reason I say that I don't believe it to be biophysics is that it can't be measured so a biophysical explanation is really not possible. It can be observed but unfortunately there are some individuals who are deliberately tricking people into thinking they have ki when they are using illusion. (Just for the record. Despite the crap that is thrown at GD I think he is an accomplished martial artist and I don't include him with the charlatans.) As a result there is a huge amount of deserved skepticism related to observing the use of ki. Hands on is the only way to test, and with total resistance.

I am referring to the phenomenon that in the west, is mostly used only in regard to the martial arts, which allows those who can manipulate it to seemingly be stronger, have more endurance, or be faster, or tougher when they make use of this 'phenomenon.'

I believe this is half right. Stronger, yes ... more endurance ... yes because you are using much less energy. But now we can be confusing softness (biophysical) and ki. Faster ... definitely not, use of ki means we do not have to be as fast. Tougher .. certainly not. As soon as you posture you are tensing your body and ki goes out the door. I believe a person using ki will be exercising humility and be totally non-threatening. In fact it is the non-threatening nature that allows you to enter the opponent's space.

I define it as the energy within the human body, and the control of it allows us to maximize our efforts by using that energy more efficiently. A simplistic definition, but that is my essential belief on the subject.

I agree with what you have stated with the addition that its effect can be manifested outside of the body.

I do believe that unscrupulous and/or self deluded individuals perpetrate the hoax regarding their abilities as related to Ki and their ability to manipulate it.

Agree 150% and herein lies the problem for genuine practitioners. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I think there is a bit more to ki than just psychological influence, I tend to think that if a person can be "hit" by ki it is because they are sensing his will and intention and he realizes when that intention gets strong so there is a noticeable change they may cause the guy on the recieving end to react in different ways.

Good description.

 

[Sukerkin]

Also complete nonsense.

Honestly, the New Age movement has a lot to answer for with this false "all opinions are equally valid and should not be laid bare to scrutiny" malarkey.

If you want to claim something then have proof of it. If you want to make extraordinary claims, then have extraordinary proof, not portentious sounding mumbo-jumbo.

I fully believe that we have not yet uncovered how all aspects of the physical universe interact and behave. After all we still have to join together the science of the very small and the very large in a convincing fashion.

That means that there is room for theory and speculation to fill the gap, so to speak. There is, however, a distinction between specious wishful thinking and extrapolation from observed events.

As is clear, this is something that empassions me somewhat, so understand that I mean not to belittle or insult but do the text-based equivalent of a thrown bucket of water to startle and awaken rational thought.

 

[exile]

Honestly, the New Age movement has a lot to answer for with this false "all opinions are equally valid and should not be laid bare to scrutiny" malarkey.

If you want to claim something then have proof of it. If you want to make extraordinary claims, then have extraordinary proof, not portentious sounding mumbo-jumbo.

As is clear, this is something that empassions me somewhat, so understand that I mean not to belittle or insult but do the text-based equivalent of a thrown bucket of water to startle and awaken rational thought.

I agree 100%, Sukerkin. So let's just take a couple of wee examples that, nonetheless, serve as miniatures for the whole lamentable exercise in confusing the bush with the bear.

I honestly do not know what ki is.

To me, it is a force, call it a mind force if that makes people more comfortable, that can be directed. Internally it can make us stonger and harder to move.

If one starts by acknowledging that s/he doesn't actually know what ki is, it seems pretty odd to then go on to call it a force, which is something very specific: a measurable change in the momentum (mass x velocity) of a physical system. That's what force is, in any but a figurative/literary use of the term (as in, 'the forces of history' or whatever). Clearly, a mind force has nothing to do with momentum. So what is it? What does "mind force" denote that's any clearer than what 'ki' denotes?? The substitution of a vague, problematic notion with no clear definition for a term from another language and vastly different culture which has no clear, unproblematic translation isn't exactly progress, eh? Basically, all this amount to what is often called 'handwaving'. It certainly doesn't supply any more information than 'ki' itself does—which is itself very little...

Think unbendable arm and lowered centre. Used against an opponent it can unsettle him to the extent that he loses the will to resist. :asian:

Ah, the unbendable arm. As Redmond pointed out in his great essay on ki, this is one of the workhorses of ki-salesmanship, a real showpiece, because it never fails. And why should it? It's the simplest possible form of biomechanical trickery in the book.

Here's a nice, accessible account of how this parlor trick works:

The explanation of the unbendable arm is that it is not a feat of "energetics," but of mere physical strength, albeit proper use of strength. When the demonstrator first introduces unbendable arm, you are asked to "make a fist" and/or "use all of your muscle" to keep your arm from being bent. You do this by tightening the "big-bellied" muscles of the arm-the biceps specifically. When the demonstrator applies pressure to your arm, it bends because the muscles you have engaged are not the muscles needed to resist the pressure on your arm but are, in fact, the exact muscles that move your arm in the same direction as his pressure, i.e. the biceps bend the arm.
Now don't think that hypnosis or suggestibility are at work here, for they are not. What is at work here is your unfamiliarity with the task at hand and the directive to "use all of your muscle." These conditions, which seem reasonable when first presented, set you up to use the wrong muscles. Once engaged, you fail the task due to improper use of your strength.

When you are "told the secret," you are directed to open your hand and relax and to extend your energy. This is the correct set-up for the proper use of strength because it is in extending your arm that you engage your triceps muscles. Your arm cannot be bent because you are able to use the triceps muscles that extend your arm. This is the proper use of strength for the task.

The method to keep someone from bending your arm in this exercise is correct and is most impressive, but the explanation of "life energy" (or any other explanation besides the use of the triceps) is wrong.

In the same way that Uri Geller's spoon- and other object-bending tricks were old hat in the community of stage magicians to which he belonged before marketing himself as a genuine paranormal paragon—well before his own apprenticeship in that craft (Randi has discovered records of 19th century professional magical performances in which nearly identical tricks to Geller were performed by accomplished stage magicians of the time)—what you have here is an almost trivial use of basic mechanical properties of objects, often dressed up in pseudo-Asian mystical vocabulary, to create an effect which is surprising only because most people don't know how objects (in this case the human body) actually work. I think the unbendable arm, in this respect, probably represents an excellent, very representative instance of ki.

Of course, if you want to include biomechanics and the rest of the kitchen sink under the heading of ki, fine. Then it's no longer a 'mind force', whatever that is, but simply a one syllable word for everything that could possibly contribute to any martial effect, physical or psychological. Very explanatory, that!

 

[Uchinanchu]

Prove chi/ki exists? Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Chinese medical profession has roughly six thousand years worth of 'proof' with the development of all the treatments that are still used today, even amoung many western taught M.D.s

As far as documented proof, again, the Chinese are fairly meticulus when it comes to 'prooving' its (chi) existance, when the treatments prescribed (that involve the manipulation of meridian lines) actually work and cure the patients.

Maybe a better thread to have started here would have been, "Do Chi masters really exist, and can they really do what they claim?" There has been a lot of speculation, assumptions, and outright ignorance (not only here) as to what 'Chi' is. If you want a proper definition, ask a TCD and be done with it. If you wish to argue the existance of Chi, then argue it with someone actually quailified to back up their side of the story, (aka- a medical doctor trained in its applications).

Sorry, I am not trying to belittle anyone here, or start an argument for (or against) the existance of chi. What I am saying is that instead of bickering amoungst ourselves on an issue, and making alot of suppositions (educated or otherwise), we should take a closer look at valid information that is available to us.

Just my humble two cents worth.

 

[Sukerkin]

{Ambassador Swanbeck}Bickering! I, sir, do not BICKER! This is an outrage!!{/Ambassador Swanbeck} :lol:.

Seriously, interesting points with regard to the focus of the thread.

I can't get into debating the ins-and-outs of the Chinese medical community (tho', if I remember rightly, we do have a member whose wife can) but that wasn't really what we were talking about - at least it wasn't what I was talking about.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Literal Blindfolding or simply not being looking in the direction of the 'threat' does not prevent you picking up cues from your environment to the existence of that threat. Humans are much better at this then we give ourselves credit for.

Perhaps this is what "ki sensing" actually is. It doesn't really matter to me. The only thing I care about is whether or not I can pick up on danger cues and project them to others. Maybe thinking about harming someone creates a chemical that can be picked up in the air by other people who are paying attention and they respond in a certain way because of it. It isn't like mindreading or anything hoky like that. I just know that when I'm blind folded and my instructer swings a sword at me or throws shuriken at me I can effectively avoid it.

 

[exile]

I find it kind of bizarre that we're even having this conversation.

We have a one syllable word from another language that comes loaded with profoundly different background assumptions from anything in Western culture; people who 'believe' in it cannot identify what it is, explicitly claim that its existence is not provable, and can offer no phenomena whose existence requires whatever it is this syllable denotes, as vs. well-understood properties of the material world. Yet this syllable is supposed to denote something which interacts with the material world enough to give rise to specific effects (the unbendable arm effect, almost inevitably, gets hauled out as a prime example to show how misguided all us killjoys are, in spite of the fact that, as I already pointed out, there is a very simple, anatomically very well supported account of exactly the unbendable arm effect, reflecting nothing that we don't already know about how opposing muscle sets work at joints in the human body. The fact that I was first shown the unbendable arm trick in the early 1960s by a middle-school classmate, who I can guarantee did not 'train in ki', lol, always made it pretty clear to me that the effect wasn't something in the least exotic, even before I started reading work by people like Martin Gardner and James Randi about how simple effects get dressed up in mystifying nonsense to help justify the agendas of paranormal hucksters).

So here's something we have (as Ninjamom keeps pointing out) no agreement about even among those urging it on us, and no replicable evidence which the thing this word is supposed to mean is the explanation of choice for. And yet people are seriously talking about this hypothetical whatever as though its existence doesn't need to be defended, and as though the problem is simply that we don't really know what 'it' is?

So far as I can see, the normal way of proceeding is that you first establish that we need to assume there's something there, and only then do you go on to try to determine what it is. Trying to determine what something is in the absence of any evidence that something is there (as vs. your subjective sense that something is there, which is very different from evidence for it) seems utterly... well, bizarre.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Just for fun -- try it sometime with someone not playing the game. Grab your little sister, neighbor, whatever... and see if it still works.

Lots of the time, when we can do something like that in a controlled environment, it's because everyone is subconsciously or unconsciously "playing along" and they're giving a cue that they aren't even aware of.

I'm not saying that's the case -- I'm just stating a possibility. Because I also know that you CAN pick up something that does tell you to move, react, whatever, to a threat that you can't explain how you sensed it.

I have and it does so long as they are not consciously trying not to be receptive to it. Does it work 100% all the time with everybody? No, but then again nothing ever does.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and for that paragraph on the explanation for how the unbendable arm works. Some people (i.e. ME) would say that to properly engage those muscles one needs to focus and have proper intention or else they fail to engage those muscles. Well to me that focus and intention IS ki. I don't believe there is an actual "force" of energy or something that is coming out of my arm when I do it, that's just visualization that gets you in the proper mindset to do it accurately. Its probably the same thing a person does when they think about gettin heavy and become much more difficult to move.

Personally I think "ki" can be explained by biophysics, but since I have nothing else to call these combined elements at work I refer to it as ki.

 

[Archangel M]

Honestly, the New Age movement has a lot to answer for with this false "all opinions are equally valid and should not be laid bare to scrutiny" malarkey.

Amen.

 

[blindsage]

Prove chi/ki exists? Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Chinese medical profession has roughly six thousand years worth of 'proof' with the development of all the treatments that are still used today, even amoung many western taught M.D.s

As far as documented proof, again, the Chinese are fairly meticulus when it comes to 'prooving' its (chi) existance, when the treatments prescribed (that involve the manipulation of meridian lines) actually work and cure the patients.

Maybe a better thread to have started here would have been, "Do Chi masters really exist, and can they really do what they claim?" There has been a lot of speculation, assumptions, and outright ignorance (not only here) as to what 'Chi' is. If you want a proper definition, ask a TCD and be done with it. If you wish to argue the existance of Chi, then argue it with someone actually quailified to back up their side of the story, (aka- a medical doctor trained in its applications).

Sorry, I am not trying to belittle anyone here, or start an argument for (or against) the existance of chi. What I am saying is that instead of bickering amoungst ourselves on an issue, and making alot of suppositions (educated or otherwise), we should take a closer look at valid information that is available to us.

Just my humble two cents worth.

6000 years of practice doesn't necessarily mean the archaic explanation for why the treatments work is correct. There is also a body of western medical research that shows that there are demonstrative, replicatible benefits from chinese medicine that utilize a chi meridian framework for explaning the effects i.e. acupuncture. That same research also shows that the effects of acupuncture are not 100% consistent with the TCM explanation. There are plenty of notable instances in which the effect is different than that claimed by the TCM practioner or that there is no effect at all. So, yes I would love to have more knowledgable people on here debating this, but no, your claim that they've got 6000 years so there's your 'proof' doesn't hold water.

 

[Flying Crane]

Honestly, the New Age movement has a lot to answer for with this false "all opinions are equally valid and should not be laid bare to scrutiny" malarkey.

aye, as someone who lives near the center of the newage universe, I've gotta agree. There's a lot of truth in this.

There are free publications around here that advertise all kinds of classes in newage crystal sucking energy healing dirt eating dryad farming unicorn taming past-life experience claptrap. Sometimes I read thru them just for the entertainment value. If I had some money to throw away, I might sit in on a class just out of morbid curiosity. Then again, people get rich off other's morbid curiosity...

 

[JBrainard]

I'm glad the OP brought this up, as I have what is (hopefully) a good analogy:
Ki is a model. For example, the CPU in your computer is a model. You don't care about what each of the transistors in it do, what matters is that it works.
So, if a marital artist uses what appears to be Ki, it doesn't really matter what "Ki" is. Is it technique, mindset, spiritual powers? Who cares. If you can use the model that is Ki to enhance your martial art, more power to you.

 

[bluekey88]

I'm glad the OP brought this up, as I have what is (hopefully) a good analogy:
Ki is a model. For example, the CPU in your computer is a model. You don't care about what each of the transistors in it do, what matters is that it works.
So, if a marital artist uses what appears to be Ki, it doesn't really matter what "Ki" is. Is it technique, mindset, spiritual powers? Who cares. If you can use the model that is Ki to enhance your martial art, more power to you.

I asgree that Ki is a model. My problem is that so much extra junk has been added/attached/thrown-at-to-see-what-sticks to the model that, for me at elast, it's lost its relevance. There are better models out there that better get at what I need.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm glad the OP brought this up, as I have what is (hopefully) a good analogy:
Ki is a model. For example, the CPU in your computer is a model. You don't care about what each of the transistors in it do, what matters is that it works.
So, if a marital artist uses what appears to be Ki, it doesn't really matter what "Ki" is. Is it technique, mindset, spiritual powers? Who cares. If you can use the model that is Ki to enhance your martial art, more power to you.

That's what I was trying to get at in one of my earlier posts, JB, I clearly went 'around the houses' a bit too much .

That is a very useable analogy that gets the idea across nice and plain :tup:.

 

[Ninjamom]

6000 years of practice doesn't necessarily mean the archaic explanation for why the treatments work is correct. There is also a body of western medical research that shows that there are demonstrative, replicatible benefits from chinese medicine that utilize a chi meridian framework for explaning the effects i.e. acupuncture. That same research also shows that the effects of acupuncture are not 100% consistent with the TCM explanation.

In fact, that body of research shows that there is no measureable difference between the results of actual TCM accupuncture by trained practitioners using chi meridians, and random pin pricks. Scientific double-blind trials of accupuncture for specific ailments/issues have shown benefit to accupuncture, compared to a placebo, but all of that benefit evaporates when the placebo used is something called 'sham accupuncture' (i.e., the patient is told they are receiving accupunture, but are instead receiving random needle-pricks at arbitrary locations, unrelated to any 'meridians').

Scientific double-blind studies have shown a measureable benefit to accupuncture for the specific issues of pain reduction. Since 'sham accupuncture' also works to exact same degree, the body's natural release of endorphins and opioids seems to offer a better explanation (i.e., an explanation that better fits all the evidence) than the existence of any chi meridians in the body. This body of evidence therefore offers measureable evidence the chi meridians (at least as described in TCM) do not exist.

Also, the accupuncture that works the best, according to recent measured medical research, involves the application of an RF field to the inserted needles. To the best of my knowledge, ancient Chinese accupuncturists did not have AC generators to produce these fields and did not apply them in any of their accupuncture. Basically, the science of accupuncture is progressing without any need for something called 'qi' and without the existence of any meridians in the body, in exactly the same way western medical science is progressing without the need for leeches or four humours in the bloodstream.

 

[K-man]

If one starts by acknowledging that s/he doesn't actually know what ki is, it seems pretty odd to then go on to call it a force, which is something very specific: a measurable change in the momentum (mass x velocity) of a physical system. That's what force is, in any but a figurative/literary use of the term (as in, 'the forces of history' or whatever). Clearly, a mind force has nothing to do with momentum. So what is it? What does "mind force" denote that's any clearer than what 'ki' denotes?? The substitution of a vague, problematic notion with no clear definition for a term from another language and vastly different culture which has no clear, unproblematic translation isn't exactly progress, eh? Basically, all this amount to what is often called 'handwaving'. It certainly doesn't supply any more information than 'ki' itself does—which is itself very little...

Ah, the unbendable arm. As Redmond pointed out in his great essay on ki, this is one of the workhorses of ki-salesmanship, a real showpiece, because it never fails. And why should it? It's the simplest possible form of biomechanical trickery in the book.

Here's a nice, accessible account of how this parlor trick works:

In the same way that Uri Geller's spoon- and other object-bending tricks were old hat in the community of stage magicians to which he belonged before marketing himself as a genuine paranormal paragon—well before his own apprenticeship in that craft (Randi has discovered records of 19th century professional magical performances in which nearly identical tricks to Geller were performed by accomplished stage magicians of the time)—what you have here is an almost trivial use of basic mechanical properties of objects, often dressed up in pseudo-Asian mystical vocabulary, to create an effect which is surprising only because most people don't know how objects (in this case the human body) actually work. I think the unbendable arm, in this respect, probably represents an excellent, very representative instance of ki.

Of course, if you want to include biomechanics and the rest of the kitchen sink under the heading of ki, fine. Then it's no longer a 'mind force', whatever that is, but simply a one syllable word for everything that could possibly contribute to any martial effect, physical or psychological. Very explanatory, that!

If one starts by acknowledging that s/he doesn't actually know what ki is, it seems pretty odd to then go on to call it a force, which is something very specific: a measurable change in the momentum (mass x velocity) of a physical system.

Dirty pool! I am the first to say I DON'T KNOW! I was then asked to try and define my understanding of ki. That is why I specifically avoided the word 'force' and used 'mind force'. Then you use that as an excuse to go off on a rant about 'parlor tricks'. What of the first three words don't you understand ... I or don't or know? This gets to me. Either you have experienced ki or you haven't. If you have experienced a trick then I am sorry. If you have experienced what I call ki then by all means describe what you felt and why you thought it wasn't ki.

Ah, the unbendable arm. As Redmond pointed out in his great essay on ki, this is one of the workhorses of ki-salesmanship, a real showpiece, because it never fails. And why should it? It's the simplest possible form of biomechanical trickery in the book.

And talking of unbendable arms, you are right about the biomechanics, and probably 95% of all so called ki may be attributed to biomechanics. I have no truck with that. It is the 5% I don't understand that I am talking about. And there a virtually NO unbendable arms that I can't bend, biomechanics or not!
By your description above, if I do a hip throw have I used biomechanical 'trickery' or biomechanics? If it is the latter why have I used biomechanical 'trickery' for an unbendable arm? Cut the emotive language. That was the reason for asking for that in the OP. This thread has been worthwhile as demonstrated by the large number of members have been following it. Let's try to keep the debate clean. I don't believe in magic and I am not into trickery.

I attended a seminar yesterday, hosted by a very highly regarded and highly ranked practitioner. During the course of the seminar he went out of his way to explain how some of the things he was doing did not involve ki. In fact he stated "I do not believe in ki". His very next sentence was, "now, as you reach out think out to the wall". How else to you train ki than by extending out with your mind. (BTW, the seminar was great.)

Thank you exile for bringing Uri Geller into the debate. I was totally unaware of his martial arts prowess. Houdini would be a good one to go for next or maybe Magical Merv! I'm sure there's some way you could use them to obfuscate the discussion.