Ki is a hoax

[Tez3]

I read a very interesting book a few years ago, and was wondering if anyone else here has read it. Its title is ‘The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism’ by Fritjof Capra. Some of it can be quite a bit “heady” at times, but for the most part, it is quite an interesting and intriguing read. To give you some idea of the contents, I’ll cite a passage from chapter 14, Emptiness and Form,(pg.221~223):

The field theories of modern physics forces us to abandon the classical distinction between material particles and the void. Einstein’s field theory of gravity and quantum field theory both show that particles cannot be separated from the space surrounding them. On the one hand, they determine the structure of that space, whilst on the other hand they cannot be regarded as isolated entities, but have to be seen as condensations of a continuous field which is present throughout space. In quantum field theory, this field is seen as the basis of all particles and of their mutual interactions.

The field exists always and everywhere; it can never be removed. It is the carrier of
all material phenomena. It is the ‘void’ out of which the proton creates the
pi-mesons. Being and fading of particles are merely forms of motion of the field.

The distinction between matter and empty space finally had to be abandoned when it became evident that virtual particles can come into being spontaneously out of the void, and vanish again into the void, without any nucleon or other strongly interacting particle being present. Here is a ‘vacuum diagram’ for such a process: three particles—a proton (p), an antiproton (-p), and a pion (rr)—are formed out of nothing and disappear again into the vacuum. According to field theory, events of that kind happen all the time. The vacuum is far from empty. On the contrary, it contains an unlimited number of particles which come into being and vanish without end.




Here then, is the closest parallel to the void of Eastern mysticism in modern physics. Like the Eastern Void, the ‘physical vacuum’—as it is called in field theory—is not a state of mere nothingness, but contains the potentiality for all forms of the particle world. These forms in turn, are not independent physical entities but merely transient manifestations of the underlying Void. As the sutra says, ‘Form is emptiness, and emptiness is indeed form.’

The relation between the virtual particles and the vacuum is an essentially dynamic relation; the vacuum is truly a ‘living Void’, pulsating in endless rhythms of creation and destruction. The discovery of the dynamic quality of the vacuum is seen by many physicists as one of the most important findings of modern physics. From its role as an empty container of the physical phenomena, the void has emerged as a dynamic quantity of utmost importance. The results of modern physics thus seem to confirm the words of the Chinese sage Chang Tsai:

When one knows that the Great Void is full of Ch’i, one realizes that there is no such
thing as nothingness.

I myself am not trying to argue for or against the existence of Ch’i. I simply wish to point out that there may be answers to our questions concerning this matter. If we truly wish to extend our knowledge of the world (and universe) that we live in, we need to approach such an endeavor with an open mind and heart and look at not only the ‘here and now’ but also how past discoveries may tie in directly with, and help support present and future discoveries. As one of my favorite physicists, Albert Einstein once said, ‘The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is…comprehensible’.
Though we may have proven certain past ‘facts’ to have been false, that in no means should suggest that our intellects are by any means superior to that of our ancient brethren. We certainly do not have “all the answers” as of yet and have actually been proven wrong at times by the so-called superstitious and/or religious beliefs from ancient cultures. Point in fact, can someone please tell me when and who discovered that the earth was round? Before people start quoting certain Greek astronomers, let’s take a look at a couple of passages from a book written roughly three-to-four hundred years before the Greeks.

“There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” Isa. 40:22
“He is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon
nothing.” Job 24:7

As most of you probably already know, these are quotes from the Christian bible…just something to ponder upon. What we think we know to be true is only “true” within the limited extent of our understanding of things.

This might be in your Christian Bible but give credit where it's due and credit it to the Jewish part of the book.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I was reading a martial arts book where the author claims that he descirbes ki as the ability to unite body and mind through focus. I think I can go with this simple explaination because it does not claim that ki can produce any strage magical effects and does not rule out biological explanations.

 

[exile]

I was reading a martial arts book where the author claims that he descirbes ki as the ability to unite body and mind through focus. I think I can go with this simple explaination because it does not claim that ki can produce any strage magical effects and does not rule out biological explanations.

Nicely put, HK. Anyone who's ever played 'out of his head' in any game, sport or other activity, anyone who's experienced that 'state of grace' feeling, where they couldn't put a foot wrong, knows that this can happen. The times I've done this skiing or ski racing, it always involved becoming hyperaware of the information coming in to me from my skis, and focusing only on, and responding only to, that information. In the end, it's a long sustained episode of reacting without thinking—where you're processing and responding to information much faster than conscious thought would allow you to.

There was a very good book about this in tennis, called The Inner Game of Tennis, by Tim Gallwey, about the nature of what we used to call 'peak performance' way back when; and we used it as a kind of informal manual of ski instruction technique alongside the PSIA syllabus. The crucial idea was that the body can learn from its own errors how to respond more accurately and effectively, if you let it and not overburden it with a conscious checklist of things to think about as the action is performed.

It's not an easy state of mind to achieve, because you're always tempted to override the body's own immediate responsiveness with a checklist of desiderata, standing outside yourself in a way and watching (mostly disapprovingly) at what you yourself are doing. But the really peak performances are much more likely to be those which flow out of your own immediate responses—backed by understanding and 'trained knowledge'—with minimum second-guessing by your own internal/eternal critic...

 

[TomoeTamara]

This subject has always been a mindbender for me.
Does KI exist? I heard of it all of my life. Heard many teachers talk about it.
Is it understandable? Depends how/what you interpret it to be.
KI--in Japanese language is "energy." (I think-please tell me if I'm wrong.)

I believe in the incredible inner/outer strength a mother can draw from herself when her small child is trapped under a car....and she lifts it off from top of him.
Is this not a form of energy???
So this COULD be Ki. If that's how you want to define it I guess.
Science may call it something different.

I don't quite believe the KI BELIEVERS ...(I call them)
Who run toward their teacher, and with a wave of his hand...
WITHOUT TOUCHING THEM--stops them in their tracks!
Come on! You know what THAT IS!!!

:BSmeter: :bs1: I just LOVE these animations. SO CUTE!

Anyway...this debate is as old as the first mention of Ki from the teacher to the student.
I just know that we as human beings have great abilities we haven't yet uncovered. Positive thinking (science has proven) can insome instances make a sick person better.
These are strong forms of Energy...I believe THEY exist.
If you wanna call it KI...go right ahead.

I've been in the martial arts for over 25 yrs...and I STILL don't understand what Ki is and if it still exists.
But...I will always keep searching with an open mind to reveil the truth.
Hopefully one day...I will find it!!!
In the meantime....I like listening to everyone debate this!!!!

opcorn:

 

[JDenver]

For me, I don't know what chi is, but that it seems to exist.

Why?

Well, your body produces an enormous amount of heat and electricity. It communicates with itself electrically. Memories and feelings are somehow 'stored' in cells via electrical impulse (which then travel up the spine to the brain for processing). This isn't my faith or belief, it's straight anatomy.

It doesn't confuse me that there's a concept around an energy, feeling, and internal circulation called chi.

 

[Archangel M]

Yeah. Its called electricity and the energy cycle of the body produces energy..a by-product of which is heat.

Why call it "Chi"?

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah. Its called electricity and the energy cycle of the body produces energy..a by-product of which is heat.

Why call it "Chi"?

When it comes to learning certain martial arts, certain concepts and principles just aren't understood well without understanding "chi-theory" so to speak. Qigong practice comes to mind.

Another is the simple fact that it's nice to have a common language with people who do believe it. For example, if I paid no attention every time someone talked about chi or if I simply did not understand the basics, I would have lost out on some quality instruction.

And then there is the cultural factor. Lots of people are interested in learning various old occult magika simply because of the enormous cultural impact it has had in our society. When it comes to chi, the concept has had the same enormous impact on eastern societies.

So, there are lots of reasons to continue to call it chi if you are interested in doing so.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think people just want to argue over it. I mean 13 pages. Noones mind is changed no victor.

 

[bluekey88]

The issue, while related to language, is just not that simple. Saying teh Qi is energy is fine....I have no problem with than. Where I have a problem is then what is attributed toi qi or energy. Saying that that energy can be projected between entities, can move objects without physical touch,that it can be controlled like "the force"...which is what a lot of people are talking about when they talk about Qi...is hokum. (Yes, I said hokum). Saying that one can fundmentally move energy without any kind of physical interaction between particles jsut can't happen. Saying an energy exists but cannot be measured can happen, but as I explained before...the energy that cannot be measured cannot interact with particles large enough and in such a way as to have a measurable effect on the world you and I live in. (So, it may exist, but it's not doing anything to us and to say we can controll or interact with it is not correct).

So, call it energy, that's fine. Don't tell me that you can project this energy from your body into my body to heal, harm, or otherwise control me.

Peace,
Erik

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Blue key I agree with everything you say.

I have been studying Qigong for over 10 years, went to Acupuncture school and practice internal martial arts. I have never met anyone who made any claims that are supernatural.

However in religious manner the supernatural of course exists.

 

[kaizasosei]

Excuse the cynical tone but it doesn't really matter what you or i think.
The whole world does not exist. Inanimate objects, living beings are the same thing and that thing is a non-entity. There is no such thing as life. Therefore there is no such thing as death. There is no technology.

Everyone you know, they are just a nameless illusion. Your ideas and emotions are useless(baseless) illusions. Science and psychology call these illusions psychosis.
Socalled things such as Love and hate, good and bad are interchangable because they are completely nonexistant. Ki is energy and science does prove energy, but science itself is nonexistant. There is no hoax because there is no truth. There is no suffering and no cessation of suffering. Therefore it is completely impossible to believe in science because knowledge itself is baseless. I know this may be new and shocking to some, however...

Noone can controll anyone else because force and energy do not exist. The world does not exist so there are no positions in space or time as time although time is perceived as real, perception is worthless because we are not real. There is no such thing as a collective and individuality is impossible.
Therefore we cannot be controlled and noone can controll anyone else. There are no laws, no criminals and no jails. These are just illusions too. There is no such thing as fortune or misfortune either. Therefore ki is not real and this very message is a hoax that has absolutely no effect on anyone. Likewise, communication is a hoax because there is no point in communicating in a world where nothing is real and everything is non reality.

I hope i have clarified everything and it makes everyone happy to know that nothing is real at all.
In case anyone has problems understanding this farse of a world, i would be content to restate myself over and over again.



j

 

[Carol]

Excuse the cynical tone but it doesn't really matter what you or i think.
The whole world does not exist. Inanimate objects, living beings are the same thing and that thing is a non-entity. There is no such thing as life. Therefore there is no such thing as death. There is no technology.

Everyone you know, they are just a nameless illusion. Your ideas and emotions are useless(baseless) illusions. Science and psychology call these illusions psychosis.
Socalled things such as Love and hate, good and bad are interchangable because they are completely nonexistant. Ki is energy and science does prove energy, but science itself is nonexistant. There is no hoax because there is no truth. There is no suffering and no cessation of suffering. Therefore it is completely impossible to believe in science because knowledge itself is baseless. I know this may be new and shocking to some, however...

Noone can controll anyone else because force and energy do not exist. The world does not exist so there are no positions in space or time as time although time is perceived as real, perception is worthless because we are not real. There is no such thing as a collective and individuality is impossible.
Therefore we cannot be controlled and noone can controll anyone else. There are no laws, no criminals and no jails. These are just illusions too. There is no such thing as fortune or misfortune either. Therefore ki is not real and this very message is a hoax that has absolutely no effect on anyone. Likewise, communication is a hoax because there is no point in communicating in a world where nothing is real and everything is non reality.

I hope i have clarified everything and it makes everyone happy to know that nothing is real at all.
In case anyone has problems understanding this farse of a world, i would be more than content to restate myself over and over again.



j

You took the blue pill, eh?

 

[kaizasosei]

I guess so.

 

[Makalakumu]

The issue, while related to language, is just not that simple. Saying teh Qi is energy is fine....I have no problem with than. Where I have a problem is then what is attributed toi qi or energy. Saying that that energy can be projected between entities, can move objects without physical touch,that it can be controlled like "the force"...which is what a lot of people are talking about when they talk about Qi...is hokum. (Yes, I said hokum). Saying that one can fundmentally move energy without any kind of physical interaction between particles jsut can't happen. Saying an energy exists but cannot be measured can happen, but as I explained before...the energy that cannot be measured cannot interact with particles large enough and in such a way as to have a measurable effect on the world you and I live in. (So, it may exist, but it's not doing anything to us and to say we can controll or interact with it is not correct).

Any teacher who actually has actually developed real skills and technique wouldn't spew what you termed as hokum. They'd give you toss to the mat and then show you how to "align your chi" so that you could perform that same technique. Now, am I going to be rude and tell an 80 year old Chinese man that chi doesn't exist?

No, I listen politely. I learn the technique and I "get into it" properly so that I can perform it.

So, call it energy, that's fine. Don't tell me that you can project this energy from your body into my body to heal, harm, or otherwise control me.

When I was taking Tai Chi regularly, certain teachers would come and visit and talk about this. Our teacher would sit back and let the guy give his spiel and then we'd get back to working out. One day I asked my teacher, "do you really think it's possible?"

He said, "No, but I never assume, so I listen." I guess it's a different mindset. It would seem that some posters would walk out the door if someone was talking about said "hokum". For my teacher, it was a matter of just being open to something new.

For me, it goes back to my point about language. If you want to have a relationship with certain people, you've got to speak their language to an extent. As a nonbeliever, I can walk into a church and say a prayer and kneel before the cross and understand that the people around me believed that this man actually existed, walked on water, healed the sick by laying hands, turned water into wine, flew into the sky, and was resurrected. I believe all of that is "hokum" but I'm not going to tell it to a believer's face when I'm in a church and I'm supposed to be your friend.

 

[bluekey88]

two things:

First, I would never go into another person's class/school and be rude like that. Not cool. Nor have I ever advocated for that.

Second, the point of this thread was to "prove" ki was a hoax...can't be done. In all of my posts on this and other threads I have maintained that I dont' disagree with the phenomenon that are often attributed to ki/chi/qi. They surely occur...I simply disagree with the explanation as being the most useful/insightful. That's not saying that speaking a common language isn't necessary...IU'm just saying the language that includes ki is not as precise as it could be and other language may need to be developed to better describe in pragmatic terms what is happening with various ki related phenomenon and perhaps better teach others how to replicate them. Isn't that the point of instruction?

So, having someone throw me to the floor to "align my chi" doesn't get at teh ehatr of my argument...sure, they can throw me...no doubt. But was it "energy" projection or was it Kintetic energy derived from an optimal use of body mechanics that disrupted my balance? Which of those best describes what happens?"

Peace,
Erik

 

[Makalakumu]

This thread is a 13 pages long. It's getting to a point where the topic has been beaten to death and now all sorts of side issues are being discussed. I certainly am not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

That said, the question, "which of those describes best what happened?"

This is a very valid question and I think the answer depends on the situation described. When we are talking about technique, certainly a physical/scientific explanation is a better explanation. When we start talking about meditation techniques that are designed to focus mental energy...well that's a toss up because some of the psychology explanations simply don't do that aspect of the art justice.

Now, I'm not saying that science can't explain it, all I'm saying is that certain aspects haven't been studied much.

 

[Archangel M]

I think that there is plenty of research and practice in the field of the "mental game"..visualization...meditation and the like as seen in professional sports coaching. There are a number of books on this topic and "guided mental imagery" is being used in many sporting/combative training circles. Even in weight lifting research is looking into the role of nerve activity and maximal muscle recruitment.

I'd buy the explination that the brain/body connection along those lines as much more plausable as causing improved performance than some mysterious...unmeasurable "force" undiscovered by science.

 

[kaizasosei]

I totally agree with what you said Bluekeysan. I think the whole ambiguity around ki is often just a reflection of various kinds of ignorance and wishful thinking. I mean, one shouldn't be using the words ki or even energy to throw someone off.

Sometimes i use the word to mean intention. Sometimes energy contained in or radiating from life, even stregth or tension. so energy can be in a shout, in a stare or even just in an intenion.
I don't want to speculate further into the possibilities of ki and all the mystical powers stuff like influencing inanimate objects or elements or elementary particles or waves, because the above examples of voice or intention are quite substantial enough for a martial artist.
I do believe that the healthier and stronger one can pack ones intentions and the more vibrant the body or situation is, then the more the underlying energy patterns will become noticable.

But i'm not sure this is the place to share feelings on ki because this thread was created to not believe in ki. So in accordance with the state of reality(if it even exists), people that talk about ki without being willing to define or share their ideas to demonstrate their validity, are doing a disservice to the very understanding of socalled ki.

What boggels my mind is not the chinese character for ki, but how could there be a chinese charatcter for electricity-den- when it was not yet really discovered until thousands of years later. Maybe there is a simple explaination. ??

j

 

[TomoeTamara]

Excuse the cynical tone but it doesn't really matter what you or i think.
The whole world does not exist. Inanimate objects, living beings are the same thing and that thing is a non-entity. There is no such thing as life. Therefore there is no such thing as death. There is no technology.

Everyone you know, they are just a nameless illusion. Your ideas and emotions are useless(baseless) illusions. Science and psychology call these illusions psychosis.
Socalled things such as Love and hate, good and bad are interchangable because they are completely nonexistant. Ki is energy and science does prove energy, but science itself is nonexistant. There is no hoax because there is no truth. There is no suffering and no cessation of suffering. Therefore it is completely impossible to believe in science because knowledge itself is baseless. I know this may be new and shocking to some, however...

Noone can controll anyone else because force and energy do not exist. The world does not exist so there are no positions in space or time as time although time is perceived as real, perception is worthless because we are not real. There is no such thing as a collective and individuality is impossible.
Therefore we cannot be controlled and noone can controll anyone else. There are no laws, no criminals and no jails. These are just illusions too. There is no such thing as fortune or misfortune either. Therefore ki is not real and this very message is a hoax that has absolutely no effect on anyone. Likewise, communication is a hoax because there is no point in communicating in a world where nothing is real and everything is non reality.

I hope i have clarified everything and it makes everyone happy to know that nothing is real at all.
In case anyone has problems understanding this farse of a world, i would be content to restate myself over and over again.

j

Sounds like the Buddhist book on EMPTINESS I read last month!!
psssst....CAROL!!! It DEFINITELY IS the blue pill!!