Kenpo in the 21st Century

[Doc]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Doc,
your talk of instructors dropping the ball is exactly what we "evolutionists" are talking about. Sure everything is in kenpo but is every instructor and every student up to the task of making kenpo work on the ground or in the ring against one of those bad *** Muay Thai fighters? You said it your self... "no."
That being the case, I see nothing wrong with rising above the human imperfections that arise and taking a look at what the specialists are doing.

Perhaps we are having a semantical disagreement. I suggest you say "personal evolutionist" and not give someone the impression you are advancing the art of American Kenpo for anyone else beyond your personal interpretation for yourself. That you are indeed entitled to do, but will not evolve my kenpo until you know and understand why I and others actually do and teach.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:

Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."

Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with.

Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:

Page 62.
Page 69-70
Page 131
Page 139
Page 141
page 148
Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
Pages 169-170
Page 175.

I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume.

Hm.

By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Actually I believe he was either a direct student of Parker or a direct student of Conatser. Either way, he was dead set on making the techs work, which he could never do.

You're speaking as if that automatically makes him good or something. the truth is the majority of Parker's black belts over his lifetime were pretty awful.

Huh, so your saying that your techniques don't take into account the possible maneuverability of a hand held weapon?

There is differance between a "hand held weapon" and a budgeon which by definition lacks quick manuverability because of its configuration, weight, and a committed use.

There is a difference between situational awareness and clairvoyance. The idea of total situational awareness is a myth, events can and will unfold without your previous knowledge. I would much rather know how to function in this high stress environment than pray that he has to do what you describe next.

Uhhh. I think you're speaking to the wrong guy. I know a bit about the streets. perhaps maybe even more than you. just a guess, no offense.

at this point your attacker has done everything but send out a memo stating his malicious intent. Most people are cheap shot artists, why? Cause it works. The element of surprise can be a powerful tool, train for that.

Last chance. You can't cheap shot with a bludgeon. and you can tell Paul I said so. His thing is speed, always has been. That's what he does, and he builds everything around it and modifies anything that limits speed execution. The last time he was in my school he was one striper working with some of my browns. I knw him and I knw what he does. It works for him so alls good, but you have to examine other perspectives before you toss things out or label them as "ineffective."

Why don't you name one aspect that ISN'T bound by anatomical contraints? To say that your SCIENCE isn't bound by anatomical constraints is to suggest that you could attack without your body.

May I suggest a course in reading comprehension? read again, I never suggested anything of the kind and it is not MY science. And I'm not trying to be short with you but please you must read objectively and logically.

 

[Fastmover]

Doc with all respect, You were not there so it is a little unwarrented for you to continue to speculate what was and wasnt done. You do not know the context of the demo. Again I saw what happened and Ive been around long enough to know when paramiters have been dictated. I also know that if the individual wasnt wearing a helmet the club would have split his head open.

"If you are so tied to your position you are unwilling or unable to see the possibilities of what I'm saying, than meaningful discussion stops at this point on this subject."

I could not agree more with you on this subject. I have been around the forums long enough to know that you are unable to respect others ideas and thoughts. Any discussion with you is basically a mute point. Case in point your speaking about the aspects of a demo that you didnt see and yet you think you know more about then someone who did.......for whatever reason? Whats the point?

You admit that you do things different which is interesting considering the topic, but I have heard your version before.

You have your opinion on Kenpo matters, other seniors have a different opinion of matters. Everyone is happy......................

Take Care

John

 

[Doc]

Doc: Your post excellently rebutted many of the major points made in this thread. Can you provide a short summary of your position on where Kenpo is/should be headed in the future? I'd love to hear your opinion.

Well the first thing I have to do is remind everyone that kenpo is not a singular entity. Ed Parker himself went through various stages and some of them were extremely diverse from other things he had done previously. So any one aspect in kenpo is a “snapshot’ in time when referring to the progenitor himself.

So what are we talking about here? Perhaps the early mainland kenpo of Chuck Sullivan, or the early Chinese Kenpo of Steve Herring? How about the LaBounty/Tracy influenced Kenpo of Tom Kelly? Then there is Dave German who added to the early Kenpo he learned after moving on in the early sixties.

How about the successful competition based kenpo of a Bob White or Steve Sanders? You know Dave Hebler is still what he calls the “Original kenpo” and his stuff is good. Then again James Ibrao goes way back and now he calls his art kenpo again as well. Let’s not forget Ralph Castro, or Al Tracy, and on.

How about some of the “newbies” like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he can’t fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons.

How about some “pups’ like Dennis Conatser, who is as sharp at the latest stuff as you can get. Lee Wedlake is another brilliant articulate individual. Then there are some of the newborns like a Zach Whitson, etc.

Which one should we examine? I think kenpo will continue to evolve under the guidance of individuals who have their own vision, and always will. I think ultimately we will all be bound by a general understanding and lineage to Ed Parker but even that is no guarantee of competence or success.

Many will maintain a relationship with Parker’s organization while still seeking their own way as they see it. Many organizations will come and many will go, and we will ultimately learn “Kenpo” has become a generic term for a modern eclectic art of self-defense whose effectiveness will always be predicated on the competency of the teacher.

But I can’t help but notice most of the best teachers of whatever interpretation you choose, do not sustain large organizations. Perhaps many are discovering what Ed Parker learned decades ago. Quality and quantity to not make a good mix, but indeed can be lucrative. Ultimately everything speaks for itself.

“Just because the red show, don’t mean you know” – Ed Parker.

Rest in peace my dear friend, the art good and bad as when you were alive, is going to be around for a long time.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:

Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."

Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with.

Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:

Page 62.
Page 69-70
Page 131
Page 139
Page 141
page 148
Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
Pages 169-170
Page 175.

I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume.

Hm.

By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do.

Your humble servant standing in the shadow of intellectual prowess, avoiding any additional tan.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Doc with all respect, You were not there so it is a little unwarrented for you to continue to speculate what was and wasnt done. You do not know the context of the demo. Again I saw what happened and Ive been around long enough to know when paramiters have been dictated. I also know that if the individual wasnt wearing a helmet the club would have split his head open.

So why did you talk about the demo if you didn't want someone to comment on it? I don't think anyone here on the forum was there so you intended to make a point with no rebuttal? Comments? What? I only commented based on the information you provided. You're right I wasn't there, and that can be said of any and all examples any of us might illustrate for discussion. I just use logicical reasoning based on what I'm told and know.

"If you are so tied to your position you are unwilling or unable to see the possibilities of what I'm saying, than meaningful discussion stops at this point on this subject."

I could not agree more with you on this subject. I have been around the forums long enough to know that you are unable to respect others ideas and thoughts. Any discussion with you is basically a mute point. Case in point your speaking about the aspects of a demo that you didnt see and yet you think you know more about then someone who did.......for whatever reason? Whats the point?

Sorry but I intended no slight, but you brought it up and I presume now you were NOT inviting comments. As far as respecting others "ideas," I examine things from my perspective as you do yours. So if what you say about me is true, what does that say about you? I defend my position with logicical reasoning, experience, education, and invite criticism. You simply say, "you weren't there." Something that we already know.

I would have felt better if you would rebut my premise for the proper scenario for that particular technique. Inviting intelligent discussion is not being "closed minded" in my opinion.

You admit that you do things different which is interesting considering the topic, but I have heard your version before.

No you have "heard of" my version before. Until you are within arms reach you have no real idea of what and how I mean it.

You have your opinion on Kenpo matters, other seniors have a different opinion of matters. Everyone is happy......................

Very few are MY seniors, but I do make and allow that everyone should do what makes them happy. I am not trying to disuade you but only personally enjoy the enlightening interaction. You see I'm a student, and for my own personal growth, I am always "there."

Have a good one and wear your helmet. :asian:

 

[Fastmover]

Actually what you are doing is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

"I know him and I know what he does."(Paul Mills)

When was the last time you were around him to know what he does?

 

[Fastmover]

Uh lets see...

1. I did not bring up the demo but I did state I was there. I did this because you jumped to the conclusion about the paramiters.

2. You are right that I have only heard and read of your version of Kenpo. The same would apply to you regarding what Mills does now and until you are within arms reach you have no idea what he is doing. Your own logic applies to you as well.

I will say "your version" part does clear up some things and makes the point about change and direction. You are only going were Mr Parker pointed you, hopefully you will stop condemning others for doing the same.

Im going to the Lake for the weekend, I might even take my helmet. All you guys be careful,

John

 

[Doc]

I will say "your version" part does clear up some things and makes the point about change and direction. You are only going were Mr Parker pointed you, hopefully you will stop condemning others for doing the same.

You know I wasn't going to say anything but now you've gone too far. I haven't condemned anyone for their views no matter what they might be. That's just pure wrong, and I am not going to let you suggest that I have.

Disagreement yes, but not condemnation. I at leat allow you to have your version.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Actually what you are doing is making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

"I know him and I know what he does."(Paul Mills)

When was the last time you were around him to know what he does?

If Paul has a problem with anything I have said, he can and will talk to me personally, however you know nothing of what I know of Paul. Close minded mindless banter is draining.

 

[Seig]

This drivel gets tiring. Here's the bottom line, there are different assosciations because people have different points of view and different desires. If you are not finding what you want from your current assoc/instructor, maybe you should find a new one. I will only speak of people I have interaction with, in this instance, I will use GD and Doc. They do things differently, some things they agree on some they don't. That's it. Now as for me, I find that GD does things the way I want to learn and teach, so guess who I sought out as an instructor? I wasn't looking to "fill in the gaps" of the system, I was looking to fill in the gaps in "my experience". No two of us are exactly alike, I doubt any two of us do Delayed Sword exactly the same. So, if no two of us do the first technique in the system exactly the same, why should the rest of our experiences and knowledge be exactly the same? They cannot be. There is a wealth of knowledge in the system, covering just about every eventuality. Learn the system, completely, don't see something? Ask someone who also knows, but sees it a different way, odds are, they will point it out. Since I singled out Doc, I will now use him as an example. If anyone were to say that Kenpo doesn't have nerve strikes, he could tear them apart usinf just the technique I have already cited. How many nerve strikes are hidden in Delayed Sword? I studied jiu-jitsu prior to getting into Kenpo, and you know what? Having that backround, I see where it is already in the system. Does that mean that I have to add what I know of Jiu-Jitsu to the system to complete it? No, it means that it makes it easier for me to see it within the system and to pass that insight on along to my students. Do some studying and examining. All the information is not right on the surface.

 

[Michael Billings]

That is my point about using Kenpo as the structure for interpretation, analyzation, and development of Motion, regardless of Art or System. It is what I choose to do and where I choose to stay.

This does not limit my knowledge or interest in other systems of combat. Indeed, we need to know what is out there. YES, I do know "how to sprawl", but why should I grapple with a grappler when I have other options available?

Ah well! Have a great Independence Day everyone. Time for me to go tend the fire.

Oss

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Doc

Although I am not an expert on the intentions of the individual members of the Gracie Family, with all due respect, it was obviously their goal was to make their concept of competition grappling popular and lucrative. They created and owned the U.F.C. venue. They picked and paired the fighters and adjusted the rules in their favor, and gave themselves the prize money when they “won.” After 5 events they sold the U.F.C. for 14 million. As the idea grew and the rules were once again adjusted, along with they no longer having control of their opponents, they became less successful. Make no mistake the Gracie’s are good at what they do, but that includes marketing.

The goal of the Gracie family was to pit one style against another to see who had the superior style. You had boxers, strikers/kickers, etc. and they won hands down. They showed us, well at least the ones with the open minds, that it is VERY important to be able to fight on the ground. Look at UFC 4. Royce fought Keith Hackney, who is a Kenpo BB. Keith had excellent striking, and hit Gracie many times. However, look closely at the fight. Every time Gracie went to take Hackney down, Hackney panicked. He knew that if he went to the ground it would be all over. And sure enough, that is exactly what happened. Regardless of if they sold the UFC or not, the fact reamins, is that the event is still dominated by grapplers. Funny though, how even the strikers that enter into these fights, have some grappling experience. Gee, I wonder why? They are not closed minded and realize the importance of learning it!



Bravo. The operative word here is “professional.” Kenpo was designed for everyday people to learn to defend themselves against common situations that might befall most people. This idea you’re training to “shootfight” the “Hulk” is ridiculous. Neither are you preparing for this Filipino knife/stick master who is a JKD Guru in his off hours. In my experience truly skilled martial artist rarely have confrontations, and even more rarely, with each other. Repeat after me, “THERE ARE NO NINJA’S HIDING IN THE PARKING LOT.” There are however bad people that will rob you if you don’t pay attention. TWO men attacked one of my black belts wives, recently in a super market parking lot. She fought them off and survived with a bruise. She doesn’t study the art. Good thing they weren’t BJJ guys I guess. Their superior “fighting” skill coupled with them hiding behind every Parker car would have doomed her.

Yup, but not every MA can avoid a fight. They do their best to avoid it, but it does happen. For someone to think that they will never fight anyone bigger, stronger or more skilled needs a SERIOUS reality check!! A BB, and I dont care what degree it is, DOES NOT, and I say again DOES NOT turn you into a superman!! You should always be training for the person that is better than you. But I guess for some of the close minded Kenpo people here that dont think that is the case, well, it must be ok for them. I wonder how this woman, if she got knocked to the ground, would have fought off her attacker? Oh, my mistake, I forgot...Kenpo is full of ground fighting techs!

Like I have said before. I'd love to see some of these people who think they will never go to the ground, go to a Juijitsu school and test their skill. Oh,I forgot, we are too good for that right!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I realize that this'll be praching to the choir and/or talking to myself, but since the "no groundwork," came up again, I recommend:

Ed Parker's, "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo: Vol 3, Physical Analyzation II."

Why. The introduction draws a nice distinction between learning the base and tailoring the system, to begin with.

Then, beginning with page 51, "Pin Against the Floor," (featuring someone who looks suspiciously like someone nick-named, "Doc"), and page 52, "Arm and Leg Lock," you might want to peruse:

Page 62.
Page 69-70
Page 131
Page 139
Page 141
page 148
Pages 155-157 (Frank Trejo groundfighting!)
Pages 169-170
Page 175.

I have left out the equally-long list of standing responses to an attacker ON the ground from this volume.

Hm.

By the way, Doc, I appreciated the support from somebody who knows a little more about kenpo than I do.

Very poor examples here. I don't consider someone laying on the ground, not even moving or attemping to do anything, while another guy stands above them throwing a kick, ground fighting! IT ISN"T!! Show me in any of these books, an escape from the mount, side mount, the guard. There are none! The grappler is not going to stay still, while the other guy delievers countless strikes to the body, like you see in the majority of Kenpo tech. You really think that is the way it happens in real life?? I don't think so!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Doc
How about some of the “newbies” like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he can’t fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons.

Gee, now this is interesting. Here it is right from the horses mouth! Last paragraph....Planas has his thing with extensive Filipino arts and weapons. Well, if he can do it and nobody talks any crap, why can't I say it without getting an earfull from all of the so called experts on cross training. Are you telling me that he isnt going to add that into his Kenpo to make it better? I'm sure he does!!

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear MJS:

The photos I referred to--did you get a chance to check them out, by the way?--are precisely that. STILL photographs. Again, I was speaking to the repeated claim that there is no groundfighting "in," "traditional," kenpo....a claim I believe that you yourself have several times made. If you'd like to argue about whether or not it's any good, OK, fine...but that is a different claim from the one initially made and many times repeated.

Just as a general theoretical question: isn't it just as "closed-minded," (your words, not mine) to refuse to look at the stuff in kenpo that you're being shown? To eliminate all sorts of stuff from the system, on the grounds that it's useless, when you're repeatedly given evidence that it in fact has a purpose--even if nothing is perfect and permanent in self-defense?

If you'll read the post you've cited, I also noted that there were just as many techniques involving PUTTING somebody on the ground. Would you like a list? I might add too--I admit it's a bit partisan--that you must be the first I've ever heard so much as suggest that Mr. Trejo is unrealistic about fighting, static in his approach to self defense, or devoted to the impractical. And no, there aren't a lot of escapes on the ground in this book..though again I should note that I have repeatedly worked such escapes (no, not as many as a good BJJ black belt would know) in classes. And there are a LOT of escapes from grapplers' attacks.

And ONCE AGAIN: neither I, nor anyone else that I've read, is arguing that kenpo approaches the questions you raise in the same way. Neither I, nor anyone else I've read, is arguing that we can wipe a mat with Mr. Gracie, or out-grapple someone trained in a grappling art just 'cause we do kenpo. Neither I, nor anyone else, has argued that you shouldn't go grapple as much as you like. We're simply arguing that this has nothing to do with the inadequacies of kenpo as a system and as a set of concepts.

As for the notion that Mr. Planas and others are doing a lot of stuff "imported," from other systems, well, sure. Nobody's saying you shouldn't. What we're saying is, why not just wait, study, learn a good strong system thouroughly first, then "tailor?" What's the rush? Why not wait until you have Mr. Planas' experience?

Sorry, but some of the folks arguing the limits of kenpo--not you, from your profile--are like blue and green belts. It's partly the limitations of my abilities, sure--but I yield to nobody around my level for knowledge, and back then I certainly knew as much as any blue or green belt with only four or five years' kenpo experience, I had great teachers, I have training and experience in academic stuff that helps understand structural systems and their limitations--and I was nowhere near competent to begin monkeying around with kenpo.

Look. I've repeatedly heard Mr. Tatum say that if there were no kenpo, the thing to do would be to go study judo. Everybody with a grain of sense respects their toughness, their conditioning, their discipline, and their ability to wrap your arms around your head and put the whole mess where the sun don't shine. Hell, Gene LeBell's BOOKS ( still photos and all) scare me.

Let me ask this: what can you tell me about the limitations of the grappling/jiu-jitsu styles you want to "import," to patch kenpo up? Have you scrutinized them as fiercely? After all, we're not gonna settle this argument--and, sorry, but it's partly because nobody's making some of the arguments you claim we're making.

Thanks for the discussion. Have a good Fourth.

Robert

 

[MJS]

Robert- In regards to my post. I'll start from the top and work down from yours. The ground fighting you and I are reffereing to are 2 very different things. While on the ground, kicking at a person who is standing above you might be considered ground fighting, it isn't. Yes, you are on the ground, and yes you are fighting. I'm referring to the various submissions and positions that are in BJJ that are not in Kenpo. The pics. do not give a good reference, due to the fact that you can't see movement. However, nobody is going to lay on the ground and allow someone above to kick at them. The bottom person will be attempting strikes as well. Let me say again, I'm not referring to 1 person on the ground and 1 striking him, I am talking about both people being on the ground.

I have looked at alot of the things in Kenpo. Due to the fact that I cross train, I therefore am able to see the imperfections a little clearer than you. If you have the chance to study another art, then maybe you will do the same.

I am not talking about tech. that just take the person down...once again, that is not ground fighting. I'm talking about the tech. that you will need if you find yourself on the ground with someone mounted on top, trying to punch your face in. The ones you mention in a prior post expose yourself greatly to a submission. I didn't make any reference to Mr. Trejo being a bad fighter. I said that the tech that were shown did not seem realistic. NOBODY is going to stand there and allow you to hit them multiple times.

You mention inadaequacies in Kenpo. Let me say again, that a complete fighter is someone that can fight in ALL ranges of combat, because you might find yourself there. If you are not used to the ground, how can you expect to defend yourself? Striking, kicking, clinching, trapping, and grappling....those are your ranges.

Wait and whats the rush? It might take 20 yrs to be proficent in an art. Are you going to take another 20 yrs to learn grappling, another 20 yrs to learn weapons? Of course not. Why not include it in one package. Look at JKD. You have many things wrapped into one.

The limits of grappling. Well, considering the majority of grapplers are punching and kicking, they seem like they are taking care of some gaps. I would say that mult. attackers would probably be a down fall. But every fight is not going to have 2 or 5 or 10 guys. You don't need to roll around for 20 min, but if you have the training to get back to your feet, then you can continue the fight standing. Also, many fights in Brazil take place on the beach, and on hard surfaces, not always on soft mats.

In reagrds to the claims you say i'm making...well, I believe it was you that was talking about tradidtion. Everybodies experience varies. I see things in Kenpo that I look at now and think.."If I try this, I'm going to get hurt." I want to be as complete as possible. Like I said before, if I can take a few things from this art and a few from that art, isn't it just going to be making me better?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by MJS

Originally posted by Doc
How about some of the “newbies” like a Frank Trejo? Nobody can tell me he can’t fight. I have watched him do it. Larry Tatum is clearly successful and effective. Huk Planas has his thing that includes extensive Filipino arts and weapons.

Gee, now this is interesting. Here it is right from the horses mouth! Last paragraph....Planas has his thing with extensive Filipino arts and weapons. Well, if he can do it and nobody talks any crap, why can't I say it without getting an earfull from all of the so called experts on cross training. Are you telling me that he isnt going to add that into his Kenpo to make it better? I'm sure he does!!

Mike

All of those guys Cross train. I like Huk seminars. He starts with the Kenpo base technique and works it till he feels you have it down. then he gives you the candy and let's you play with different variations, some imported from filipino arts and silat. It's fun but he never goes to the next step till he thinks you have the base.

Personally I think everyone should study what they want and the rest of us shouldn't worry about it. I love learning bits and pieces of other arts but I've chosen Kenpo as my base and I don't yet have enough time to seriously study another art. That's my choice.

With respect to BJJ and other ground fighting systems Huk Planas would also probably tell you that the principles are in Kenpo but your out of Luck if you have to apply them without practicing the applications first. He points out that the problem with the Karate Kid is not Wax on Wax off but that there is no practice of application before he uses it.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear MJS:

Sigh.

First off, your same critique might be applied to all those neat grappling thingies. Nobody is going to lie there and let that go on.

Second off---please read carefully---I don't want to be a fighter in the sense you argue. Not at all. Never did. Not the point.

Third: yes. I actually would be willing to spend the twenty years. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW LONG IT TAKES. How long did it take the much-announced Bruce Lee? The Gracies? Gene LeBell? Anybody?

And last--you are mistaken about cross-training giving a clearer view of one's failings. I yield to no one in an understanding of my failings in martial arts.

You persist in seeing everything that disagrees as an attack. It's not. You should do what you think right--all I'm asking is that you maintain a little respect for those of us who see matters differently.

Interesting reading in this context includes (because it'll agree with you as much as with me) Gene LeBell, "Handbook of Judo," and Herman Kauz, "A Path to Liberation."