Kenpo in the 21st Century

[Fastmover]

I agree Clyde that Dance of Death is more then just a single leg takedown and because of this it is much more effective. Judo and many of the grappling arts have very good takedowns but we do also within Kenpo. Throughout the system of Kenpo there are many examples of effective takedowns and "strike downs."

Because of this we all know that being taken down in a street situation is at least possible.

Now looking at this thing "from the ground up," what options do I have if Im on the receiving end of the situation. If we can take people down effectively then people could do the same to us. We need to prepare the future Kenpo generations how to escape from these type of situations and get back to their feet. Avoidance is the first step and Kenpo does address this in many areas. However for us mentally challenged guys who might react slower and get caught off gaurd, learning to escape from the ground and having the curriculum in place to teach this would be greatly helpful.

I have a video of Mr Parker doing a technique on Frank Trejo on a TV show demonstrating Kenpo. Surprisingly Mr. Parker Slipped and feel right on his butt. Even the greatest can slip and find themselves on the ground.

Be Good

John

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Fastmover
I agree Clyde that Dance of Death is more then just a single leg takedown and because of this it is much more effective. Judo and many of the grappling arts have very good takedowns but we do also within Kenpo. Throughout the system of Kenpo there are many examples of effective takedowns and "strike downs."

Because of this we all know that being taken down in a street situation is at least possible.

Now looking at this thing "from the ground up," what options do I have if Im on the receiving end of the situation. If we can take people down effectively then people could do the same to us. We need to prepare the future Kenpo generations how to escape from these type of situations and get back to their feet. Avoidance is the first step and Kenpo does address this in many areas. However for us mentally challenged guys who might react slower and get caught off gaurd, learning to escape from the ground and having the curriculum in place to teach this would be greatly helpful.

I have a video of Mr Parker doing a technique on Frank Trejo on a TV show demonstrating Kenpo. Surprisingly Mr. Parker Slipped and feel right on his butt. Even the greatest can slip and find themselves on the ground.

Be Good

John

Believe me, I consider these scenarios as well, which is why we have sensitivity training. It boils down to who is better prepared. I've just mentioned something about doing a video series on reversals, enhancements, and using the equation formula to maximize the efficiency of your techniques. Training drills designed to teach you sensitivity is one of these methods. I attempt to teach people Murphy's Law when it comes to the execution of technique, and when done ineffectively, how to reverse their action to your benefit. It reminds me of ECM, ECCM, ECCCM, ECCCCM, etc. Counter to Counter to Counter. It works for me.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, I reject the premises of the poll's questions. It simply isn't as simple as tradition vs. change, and never was, in part because of the inherently-radical nature of kenpo.

As for the questions about my responses to the "bad techniques," well, here's one response only. The initial post claimed that a gun tech such as Capturing the Rod couldn't work because, with the advent of new gun technology, it was impossible to get your hand in to stop the cylinder, slide, or hammer. Uh...that's why I pointed out the the principal object of the first two moves was NOT to get your hand in to stop the cylinder, slide or hammer, but to move your body out of line and to deflect the gun. I might add that it wouldn't make any real difference if it was a matchlock...

As for the stuff about Leaping Crane and crane/twist stances--no, I don't plan to stand there. Most likely, these are transitional stances, and they work the way I said they work. Just FYI, I also don't plan to stand there in front of the guy with my hands up in some version of a boxer's pose, either.

And again--I just don't get why it is that when I and others point out that we are already getting, and have been for some time, the kind of training that traditional kenpo supposedly doesn't have--even when Clyde posts a picture of something kenpo doesn't have--it gets ignored.

I better go eat supper. We are now in a situation in which Clyde is being far more polite than the damn English professor.

Thanks for the discussion,
Robert

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...let me try this one more time.

I'm not arguing that nobody should bother learning any of the basics of groundfighting. I'm arguing that you don't need to go, "outside," kenpo to do it.

I'm not arguing that going, "outside," kenpo is wrong. I'm arguing that what you will find there was, "in," kenpo all along.

Not sure I'm following you on this. I understand that Kenpo has tech. that include takedowns. There are strikes to the downed opp. I don't see Kenpo addressing what to do if you are on the ground with someone mounted on you, punching you. Show me where in Kenpo this is?

I believe that the point of this thread was- Kenpo in the 21st century. It was supposed to get everybodys thoughts as to where Kenpo is going in the future and what needs to be added or deleted to make it more of a complete system. I don't understand what the problem is here? I mean, Parker himself changed it, so why not change it again? Why not add something in to make it more up to date with todays world? Is that so wrong? I'm not saying add an entire grappling program, but why not address the issue, seeing that it is not in there. Why not address more weapon attacks? Kenpo is a devastating art. All of the techs. if applied correctly, can cause alot of damage. But, is every situation going to require that amount of force? Why not add in some controlling tech.

I might be wrong, but I thought that this was the idea of this thread??? To see where Kenpo was going!

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Overhead cross block: In order to do an overhead cross block and move your skull out of the way so it doesn't get cracked (using the 45 degree angle and all) your cross block would have to be out to either side of your shoulder. If this is the case, why not just teach an mixture of an overhead and extended outward block? Your idea of moving to a zone of santuary can be better accomplished by making the block and keeping your head forward almost as if you plan to drive your face into their chest (obviously this is an overexaggeration so you can understand what I'm saying)

Leaping Crane: So what you are trying to say is that you plan to leap to one leg in the middle of a fight? Prudence and the basic laws of physics suggest that leaping to a what essentially becomes a single point of balance, a point which now is loaded with all the force that your "leaping" body has created, would not be ideal. At this instance your commitment is total and directional change is difficult....

Mr Yahho,
Man I'm totaly with you on just about every thing you say but my stomach just churned on this leaping crane thing. First of all one legged stances are transitional. Ever time we kick we stand on one leg which begs the question why kick so much but I digress. I think you are reading too much into the word leap here; all you are doing is stepping off the line of attack while moving forward then you either pick up your leg to kick or continue moving forward and away from danger, or you swing your left leg behind you and become neutral to your opponent. At the risk of sounding like Clyde here, maybe you you don't know leaping crane well enough to decide its a bad technique. I think stepping forward in "Grip of Death" isn't your best course of action; so, I agree with you premis that some techs are a little unsafe but you need to lay of leaping crane my brother.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Mr Yahho,
Man I'm totaly with you on just about every thing you say but my stomach just churned on this leaping crane thing. First of all one legged stances are transitional. Ever time we kick we stand on one leg which begs the question why kick so much but I digress. I think you are reading too much into the word leap here; all you are doing is stepping off the line of attack while moving forward then you either pick up your leg to kick or continue moving forward and away from danger, or you swing your left leg behind you and become neutral to your opponent. At the risk of sounding like Clyde here, maybe you you don't know leaping crane well enough to decide its a bad technique. I think stepping forward in "Grip of Death" isn't your best course of action; so, I agree with you premis that some techs are a little unsafe but you need to lay of leaping crane my brother.

Hmm, sudden Twist of Fate here LOL. Seems you've taken to the Dark Side Sean. You must stay in the light.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm of two minds on the subject, I admit, but it leaping crane for God's sake. Can't I pick and choose?

 

[rmcrobertson]

One answer, Mike, would be this...when I mentioned the two-foot bruise on my arm, I got it practicing peeling a guy off your chest with a minor modification of Snapping Twig.

Thanks...it has to be said, at least this thread kicks proverbial.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
One answer, Mike, would be this...when I mentioned the two-foot bruise on my arm, I got it practicing peeling a guy off your chest with a minor modification of Snapping Twig.

Thanks...it has to be said, at least this thread kicks proverbial.

Its a little early in the morning. I"m having a little mental block here. Could you offer some input on how you did this?

Mike

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Only thing I'm arguing that I can see real, reasonable objections to is the idea that kenpo is not a martial arts system. It's the key to martial arts systems. One sign of this--as was noted previously, somebody with a reasonable knowledge of kenpo can explain what other systems are doing a lot easier than the other way around.

Very Well Said!!! I like it!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Very Well Said!!! I like it!

How so? If an art does not address something as part of the material, how are you going to have an understanding of it?

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mike:

1) How to get dependent lividity all up and down the arm: with the attacker sitting on your chest and attempting to choke you, put your left heel-palm under their chin, grab the back of their hair, and push/pull to the right...much as in Snap. Twig, the second move involves a leftoutward hand-sword while the right hand pulls down and back along the arm...then, while dummying, worry about getting your ankle out from under so much that you forget where you are and, in descending, overhead elbow one of the support boards holding up the mat. Sleep with that arm downward, et voila...le three-foot bruise.

2) I can't say I get the damn thing, or the Univ. pattern, but both include the idea of encoding info into the system without actually writing it down. Another example would lie in the applications of those "worthless," (not at all what you said, I know, but I'm still on a toot about it) sets and forms...

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

Hitting the support boards. Yeah, I see how that can give you a pretty nasty bruise. In regards to katas...I've been in a discussion with others about this very topic. This person thinks that kata is a total waste of time. Well, it depends on how you look at it. Dillman is big on kata. Many of his movements are hidden in katas. I do believe that you can use portions of katas in SD situations. Of course, you will not be moving like you do in the kata, but you can take movements out of them, and apply them to your SD.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert: You just gave an example of a defense against a choke from under the mount. Unfortunately, your method will put you straight into an arm-bar. This is an excellent example of where a good Kenpo technique would be incorrectly applied in a grappling situation. Try this with a good grappler some time. A better defense against a choke from under the mount would involve snaking one arm inside your opponent and then using both arms to release the choke.

 

[MJS]

That might work, but you also run the risk of have the person on top push your arm across your neck, allowing for a side choke. I might be reading this wrong OFK, so please correct me if i am.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

MJS you are right. Straightening your arms under the mount or in the guard is a no-no in BJJ and Submission Grappling. It will get you arm-barred or triangled EVERY time.

I've also expressed pretty strong opinion on katas on some threads here. I feel that the techniques in Katas (particularly Kenpo Katas) should be practiced as techniques but the solo practice of Kata in the air should be minimized or eliminated in favor of practicing the technique application against a resisting partner.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sure, absolutely, counters have counters...which is what Clyde was saying all along. However, the point you guys had been making was that a) kenpo takes no account of ground-fighting and grappling, b) learning the stand-up techs, their concepts, their principles, has no application on the ground. Therefore...

As for handling the guy on your chest punching you in the face, which kenpo "can't handle," well, Mr. Tatum teaches (among other things) a variation of Circling Fans for exactly this. Yes, the dummy really tries to punch you in those classes. Yes, we run it more than twice, and I've now seen it in three classes. Yes, there are other ground-fighting methods taught too. Yes, they are all adaptations/employments of kenpo techniques, concepts and principles. Yes, it's important to learn some of this stuff.

As for the stuff about dumping the kata, and I am using the old-fashioned term deliberately...you are very wrong. To repeat myself, this is a beautiful illustration of throwing out part of the system, then turning around and claiming that all sorts of things were never in the system. If you'll look at previous posts, Long 2 (perhaps the most-traditional of the kata) has a section covering judo throws. Long 5 focuses on takedowns and dealing with people on the ground. Long 6? More takedowns, locks, etc...and that's just the obvious.

Sorry, but you are trying to remove from the system the material that brought you to the point you could decide to tailor the system for yourself...which means, you are closing the door on students who know less.

And not the least way in which you are closing this door is in denying that there's any point in teaching those really rather beautiful kata...if nothing else, removing the kata removes the chance for students to slowly, systematically, learn how to connect moves and organize their thinking.

I disagree. Strongly.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert. I am GLAD you disagree. It keeps our discussion alive. If we agreed most of the time then we would have...the Kenponet forum...no just kidding...we would have pre-arranged technique drills...just kidding...

Seriously though. I am glad that Tatum's school is doing good hard training to escape from the mount. I hope that every school does the same. It is a crucial skill. I haven't seen Larry Tatum in action in about 15 years, but I always thought he was one of the best. I really like his video tapes. I have never understood the Parker/Tatum split which opened the door to today's Kenpo factionalism. You are fortunate to have such excellent instruction.

As far as "dumping" Kata. I think the techniques in all of the Katas should be preserved. I think students should spend their time practicing these techniques against opponents rather than doing them in the air. Long 2 is a great example. You can practice Long 2 until you wear lines in the mat, but if you want to do the takedowns in Long 2 effectively, you had better grab someone and try to throw him down while he is trying to hit, escape, or throw you.

P.S. As an English Professor, my grammar and excessive use of commas must annoy you even more than my opinions.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Robert. I am GLAD you disagree. It keeps our discussion alive. If we agreed most of the time then we would have...the Kenponet forum...no just kidding...we would have pre-arranged technique drills...just kidding...

Seriously though. I am glad that Tatum's school is doing good hard training to escape from the mount. I hope that every school does the same. It is a crucial skill. I haven't seen Larry Tatum in action in about 15 years, but I always thought he was one of the best. I really like his video tapes. I have never understood the Parker/Tatum split which opened the door to today's Kenpo factionalism. You are fortunate to have such excellent instruction.

As far as "dumping" Kata. I think the techniques in all of the Katas should be preserved. I think students should spend their time practicing these techniques against opponents rather than doing them in the air. Long 2 is a great example. You can practice Long 2 until you wear lines in the mat, but if you want to do the takedowns in Long 2 effectively, you had better grab someone and try to throw him down while he is trying to hit, escape, or throw you.

P.S. As an English Professor, my grammar and excessive use of commas must annoy you even more than my opinions.

I must ask, have you ever delved into the Kata to get all the information out of them? Are they to you just techniques, or can they be taught as a sub-level of the techs.? Many of the applications in the form are quite different from the techniques, an entitly in and of themselves. I continue to find information in the forms that would dazzle the most brilliant Kenpoka, and Larry is constantly showing new applications in them I would have never found on my own. I like em' alot.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[MJS]

When mounted on somebody, it is next to impossible for the bottom person to punch the guy on top, while the person on top has the ability to do this at anytime. Also, unless you have one of his legs hooked and you are grabbing onto one of his arms, it is going to be very difficult to knock the person off of you, especially if he has his legs grapevined around yours.

Mike