Kenpo and Aikijutsu

[drop bear]

I agree that the concept "aiki" - whether used with that name or not - is almost certainly not something that originated with Takeda's Daito-ryu. I suppose it's possible that's the first place it got such heavy emphasis (doubtful, but possible), but surely that wasn't a new concept, even then.

So is this like calling a rifle a gun?

 

[MI_martialist]

Exactly what I have been trying to get at! And not only in this thread!!

I agree that the concept "aiki" - whether used with that name or not - is almost certainly not something that originated with Takeda's Daito-ryu. I suppose it's possible that's the first place it got such heavy emphasis (doubtful, but possible), but surely that wasn't a new concept, even then.

 

[Star Dragon]

A long time ago, I did Shotokan Karate and Aikido. I am a Kenpo practitioner now. I see many parallel between these two arts. I once read somewhere that Kenpo is the illegitimate child that resulted from Karate and Aikido meeting one night in a bar. That summarises it well.

When practising the self-defense techniques, I often see opportunities for grafting Aikido locks or throws to them. Actually, sometimes their equivalents are already there in the EPAK techniques. E.g., recently, when I was doing "Grasp of Death" on a guy, he commented on the effectiveness of my arm bar.

Talking about doing Kung Fu and Kenpo simultaneously: If you are new to both, I would not recommend doing that. Kung Fu is an umbrella term, but in all likelihood, the two arts will be too similar to each other, and you will get neither quite right.

I feel that crosstraining in Muay Thai should pose less problems, it might actually even enhance the many elbow strikes, knees, low kicks etc. that you have in Kenpo. Overall, Kenpo is more of a hand system, so training a system that emphasizes legs more might balance that. In this regard, I am happy that I have my Shotokan background.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So is this like calling a rifle a gun?

Could well be, DB. The concept exists in arts that aren't derived from Daito-ryu (Tony has talked about it in Judo). Even within the "aiki" arts, there are enough different interpretations of what "aiki" is, that I expect to find at least one of those interpretations in almost any art. There's at least one interpretation of "aiki" (by Kondo Katsuyuki of Daito-ryu, in demonstrating the difference between "jujutsu" and "aikijujutsu") that would put "aiki" as a reasonably advanced point in any grappling art.

 

[JP3]

I was a seminar in OKC with Nick Lowry, where he was discussing the "how" of the putting together of judo by Kano-sensei. Nick was talking about Kito-ryu as being the throwing progenitor for judo.... (That's backed up in the historical documentation etc., an example is judoinfo.com's page, below)

The History of Kodokan Judo – Judo Info

Nick told a hilarious story (legend?) about an apparent Kito-ryu master/teacher, and in it he made sure to emphasize the giving-way nature of actual technical judo. That giving way, the "Ju" portion, for me, is very closely linked witht he concept of Aiki you guys are discussing here. Gerry, I think you didn't take the same spin on this, though though they were similar. The idea of "throw them where they want to go" apparently originated with the Kito-ryu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was a seminar in OKC with Nick Lowry, where he was discussing the "how" of the putting together of judo by Kano-sensei. Nick was talking about Kito-ryu as being the throwing progenitor for judo.... (That's backed up in the historical documentation etc., an example is judoinfo.com's page, below)

The History of Kodokan Judo – Judo Info

Nick told a hilarious story (legend?) about an apparent Kito-ryu master/teacher, and in it he made sure to emphasize the giving-way nature of actual technical judo. That giving way, the "Ju" portion, for me, is very closely linked witht he concept of Aiki you guys are discussing here. Gerry, I think you didn't take the same spin on this, though though they were similar. The idea of "throw them where they want to go" apparently originated with the Kito-ryu.

Agreed. This is probably the broader view of "aiki". I use it two different ways, discussing the concept of "aiki" (more similar to Judo's "ju", which often adds substantial force to take advantage of what's being given by the opponent) and "pure aiki", which is an extension of the principle into a throw with very little force/energy added by the thrower. IMO, learning the latter without the former leaves a huge gap in the ability to apply technique. In fact, when I teach these, I'm lazy enough to call them "ju" and "aiki".

 

[JP3]

In fact, when I teach these, I'm lazy enough to call them "ju" and "aiki".

Why's that lazy? Use of proper nouns? Your school over there needs to upgrade its slang?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why's that lazy? Use of proper nouns? Your school over there needs to upgrade its slang?

It's lazy because - in the context I teach in - they are more properly "aiki" and "pure aiki". But "ju" saves me two whole syllables every time I use them together. I actually think aiki/pure aiki is clearer to newer students. But they learn to deal with my lazy combination of terms.

 

[JP3]

It's lazy because - in the context I teach in - they are more properly "aiki" and "pure aiki". But "ju" saves me two whole syllables every time I use them together. I actually think aiki/pure aiki is clearer to newer students. But they learn to deal with my lazy combination of terms.

You think about things like that too much, I think. Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You think about things like that too much, I think. Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough.

There is much I think about too much, my friend. It is my greatest strength and most potent weakness.