Kenpo and Aikijutsu

[Gerry Seymour]

You are correct in that most people don't understand the differences. It is nonetheless still misleading, and a true watering down of meaning of words. It is wholly inappropriate and should not be done. I see it akin to false advertising!!!

I do not believe we are talking about a linguistic subtlety...like a slight nuance in meaning between words...they are completely different and have very different meanings.

For something to be misleading, it must mislead people. If people don't understand the "correct" usage, they can't be mislead by the "incorrect" usage.

I put those in quotes, because what we're talking about is a designation by the Japanese government. Words' meaning comes from usage, not commandment. The best example I can give is that many MA schools put "karate" on their signs because it communicates to the general public, though what they teach may not be (strictly speaking) karate. To some, both that usage and the "incorrect" jutsu are like putting an incorrect brand on a car - calling it a "Ford", when it's not. But those aren't actually brands, but descriptors. To me, I see nothing inappropriate in the usage, so long as they are not making false claims to students. You and I will know their usage isn't technically correct, but it's correctly descriptive to their target audience.

To me, the issue is of small importance. It's like when CRT monitors were labeled by their "size class". Monitors were typically labeled by their diagonal viewable area. Some were labeled '15" class', but were actually 15.1" or even 14.9". That was a typical usage, and didn't confuse users. In the details, the exact size was given, so there was no deceit.

 

[MI_martialist]

We can agree to disagree...I see it as just because the end user does not distinguish, does not make the practice right.

For something to be misleading, it must mislead people. If people don't understand the "correct" usage, they can't be mislead by the "incorrect" usage.

I put those in quotes, because what we're talking about is a designation by the Japanese government. Words' meaning comes from usage, not commandment. The best example I can give is that many MA schools put "karate" on their signs because it communicates to the general public, though what they teach may not be (strictly speaking) karate. To some, both that usage and the "incorrect" jutsu are like putting an incorrect brand on a car - calling it a "Ford", when it's not. But those aren't actually brands, but descriptors. To me, I see nothing inappropriate in the usage, so long as they are not making false claims to students. You and I will know their usage isn't technically correct, but it's correctly descriptive to their target audience.

To me, the issue is of small importance. It's like when CRT monitors were labeled by their "size class". Monitors were typically labeled by their diagonal viewable area. Some were labeled '15" class', but were actually 15.1" or even 14.9". That was a typical usage, and didn't confuse users. In the details, the exact size was given, so there was no deceit.

 

[oaktree]

Aikijutsu, IMO, is a descriptor. It may be mis-used from a linguistic standpoint, but Daito-ryu is not the only path to aikijutsu/aikijujutsu. There are many styles of Jujutsu, and if someone adjusted them to make aiki a primary principle, they could rightly be called Aikijujutsu. Now, whether it should be called that or Aikido (post-Meiji-restoration naming rules), is not really that significant to most people outside Japan.

Well Aikijutsu and Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu are 3 different levels in Daito ryu and 3 distinct characteristics. If I do Taijiquan and explore the concept of "Aiki" it does not make Taijiquan Aikijujutsu. Most of what is Aikijutsu is karate mixed with Aikido, or perhaps an off shoot of an offshoot from Daito ryu. Is there other Koryu jujutsu that have the term Aiki in their art I believe so but finding another legit jujutsu school that is using it besides Daito ryu is rare.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well Aikijutsu and Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu are 3 different levels in Daito ryu and 3 distinct characteristics. If I do Taijiquan and explore the concept of "Aiki" it does not make Taijiquan Aikijujutsu. Most of what is Aikijutsu is karate mixed with Aikido, or perhaps an off shoot of an offshoot from Daito ryu. Is there other Koryu jujutsu that have the term Aiki in their art I believe so but finding another legit jujutsu school that is using it besides Daito ryu is rare.

If we come from a Kitty perspective, we have to be more strict. Most martial artists don't take a kitty view. If the thing is consistent with jujutsu, and has an wiki focus, aikijujutsu (or, equally, aikijutsu) is properly descriptive.

 

[MI_martialist]

What about before Daito Ryu? Where did that come from? Do we really know what jujutsu really means?

Well Aikijutsu and Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu are 3 different levels in Daito ryu and 3 distinct characteristics. If I do Taijiquan and explore the concept of "Aiki" it does not make Taijiquan Aikijujutsu. Most of what is Aikijutsu is karate mixed with Aikido, or perhaps an off shoot of an offshoot from Daito ryu. Is there other Koryu jujutsu that have the term Aiki in their art I believe so but finding another legit jujutsu school that is using it besides Daito ryu is rare.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If we come from a Kitty perspective, we have to be more strict. Most martial artists don't take a kitty view.

Is that autocorrect for something like "koryu" or is it some new usage of "kitty" that I haven't encountered before?

 

[drop bear]

Is that autocorrect for something like "koryu" or is it some new usage of "kitty" that I haven't encountered before?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is that autocorrect for something like "koryu" or is it some new usage of "kitty" that I haven't encountered before?

Yes, that was "koryu". I entirely missed the autocorrect. I like the idea of a kitty view.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does that come in black, DB?

 

[JP3]

You just train to develop more than 1 mindset.

So... you're saying I am martially-schizophrenic. That does explain things....

 

[drop bear]

So... you're saying I am martially-schizophrenic. That does explain things....

Let's make it sound cook and suggest we all wear masks.

Like Batman.

 

[JP3]

Let's make it sound cook and suggest we all wear masks.

Like Batman.

OK, you be Batman. I'll be Daredevil. I like red.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK, you be Batman. I'll be Daredevil. I like red.

Damnit! That took my two favorite - do I have to be Aquaman now?

 

[drop bear]

Damnit! That took my two favorite - do I have to be Aquaman now?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some people have way too much time on their hands.

 

[oaktree]

What about before Daito Ryu? Where did that come from? Do we really know what jujutsu really means?

takeda is accepted as the founder or preserver if you want to believe it as a historical art linked to the aizu and courts and all that. Well translating into English we only get an idea that is pretty much agreed upon.

 

[MI_martialist]

Nice, but not what I said...what was before? Where did it come from?

takeda is accepted as the founder or preserver if you want to believe it as a historical art linked to the aizu and courts and all that. Well translating into English we only get an idea that is pretty much agreed upon.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well Aikijutsu and Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu are 3 different levels in Daito ryu and 3 distinct characteristics. If I do Taijiquan and explore the concept of "Aiki" it does not make Taijiquan Aikijujutsu. Most of what is Aikijutsu is karate mixed with Aikido, or perhaps an off shoot of an offshoot from Daito ryu. Is there other Koryu jujutsu that have the term Aiki in their art I believe so but finding another legit jujutsu school that is using it besides Daito ryu is rare.

There are a few arts that have aiki and aiki-like principles at some of their higher levels that I'm aware of, but none that use the term "aikijutsu" or similar.

If we come from a Koryu perspective, we have to be more strict. Most martial artists don't take a koryu view. If the thing is consistent with jujutsu, and has an aiki focus, aikijujutsu (or, equally, aikijutsu) is properly descriptive.

(I love kitties, but to aid in clarity, I've adjusted your original quote, Gerry....)

If we come from a Koryu perspective? Is there another?

Before you think I'm being facetious, the term originates in Daito Ryu... it is a Daito Ryu-specific term, in fact. Modern arts that use the term tend to have no actual connection to the reality of it's usage, instead making up their own reasons, typically based in their own misunderstandings of the terms involved... as a result, personally, I will tend to dismiss them as irrelevant to the conversation. Of course, what you'd need to define is what is actually "consistent with jujutsu", and what an "aiki focus" actually means... as, to my mind, these "modern Aikijujutsu" systems do not have what would pass.

In other words, it's not misused from a linguistic perspective (inaccurate, sure, but that's a bit different), it's misused from a pedagogical and historical perspective.

What about before Daito Ryu? Where did that come from? Do we really know what jujutsu really means?

There is no known usage of Aikijujutsu or Aikijutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku's use of the term in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Where did it come from? Takeda Sokaku. Do we know what Jujutsu really means? Yes. Do you?

Nice, but not what I said...what was before? Where did it come from?

The context of your comments wasn't particularly easy to parse... and Oaktree's comments were completely correct. And answered your questions, such as they are, based on the way you wrote them.

 

[MI_martialist]

I was not talking about the usage of "Aiki" anything...but rather the training...there had to have been training before that...this may have been the focus or the specialized curriculum instructed, but again, what was instructed before that?

Yes I do know what actual historical meanings of jujutsu are...

There is no known usage of Aikijujutsu or Aikijutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku's use of the term in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Where did it come from? Takeda Sokaku. Do we know what Jujutsu really means? Yes. Do you?


Yes, if we fixate on a style or school and not core training.

The context of your comments wasn't particularly easy to parse... and Oaktree's comments were completely correct. And answered your questions, such as they are, based on the way you wrote them.[/QUOTE]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was not talking about the usage of "Aiki" anything...but rather the training...there had to have been training before that...this may have been the focus or the specialized curriculum instructed, but again, what was instructed before that?

Yes I do know what actual historical meanings of jujutsu are...

There is no known usage of Aikijujutsu or Aikijutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku's use of the term in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Where did it come from? Takeda Sokaku. Do we know what Jujutsu really means? Yes. Do you?


Yes, if we fixate on a style or school and not core training.

The context of your comments wasn't particularly easy to parse... and Oaktree's comments were completely correct. And answered your questions, such as they are, based on the way you wrote them.

I agree that the concept "aiki" - whether used with that name or not - is almost certainly not something that originated with Takeda's Daito-ryu. I suppose it's possible that's the first place it got such heavy emphasis (doubtful, but possible), but surely that wasn't a new concept, even then.