Kenpo and Aikijutsu

[JMulford]

Hey all,

So currently I have started training Kenpo as my main art and Muay Thai as a secondary art/conditioning improver. However, the school I'm out teaches a few different arts which has led me to research a few of them.

Two that line up with my current schedule are their Kung Fu and Aikijutsu. While Kung Fu does interest me, from my very novice perspective, it would do much more harm than good to do that and Kenpo together - at least until I truly learned Kenpo very well. Even then there may be too many similarities that would make mistakes creep in to form and such.

Aikijutsu is the other one and that one seems like it would very much work well with Kenpo. Again, I don't know much about anything, just what my eyes tell me.

This is off in the distance but I have gained a pretty big interest in training the Aikijutsu alongside the Kenpo. It just seems to me that it would flow so well together.

Is my thinking wrong in the big picture? Any feedback in appreciated.

 

[Headhunter]

Don't start spreading out to quick or you'll just confuse yourself focus on maybe 1 or 2 to start with and get a strong base then start adding if you want to. Kenpo and Muay Thai should be okay to mix straight off though

 

[JMulford]

Don't start spreading out to quick or you'll just confuse yourself focus on maybe 1 or 2 to start with and get a strong base then start adding if you want to. Kenpo and Muay Thai should be okay to mix straight off though

Definitely. This will be down the road at least a little ways and could even involve the dropping of MT, although there are many things that I enjoy about MT, so we'll see.

I'm more curious about how well people think Kenpo and Aikijutsu would flow together if I chose to head down that path.

 

[oaktree]

If it's not daito ryu it most likely is not actual aikijujutsu or aikijutsu, but something made up. If you enjoy it great just don't believe it as authentic

 

[JMulford]

If it's not daito ryu it most likely is not actual aikijujutsu or aikijutsu, but something made up. If you enjoy it great just don't believe it as authentic

I'm not overly concerned with authenticity so much as effectiveness. I know it's taught it comes from whatever lineage Bernie Lau is from, as he taught it to the guy teaching it. Looking up Bernie Lau turns up pretty positive information, so I assume it's not a complete dud.

 

[oaktree]

Basically aikido if it's Bernie.

 

[MI_martialist]

So, your posts confuse me a little. You state that you do not want to train in Kenpo and Kung Fu at the same time because mistakes can creep into your form...but later you state that effectiveness is what you are really after...so which is it?

The real question is...what is the difference between kenpo, kung fu, aikijutsu (or aikido it would seem)? If they are all martially based, then the differences are a result of either preference or specificity in curriculum.

If you are looking for effectiveness, look for something that trains in weapons immediately. If you want to be effective, that means that you want to protect yourself against an attack, correct? If that is the case, there are 2 base assumptions you need to make...first, if you are attacked, they will be armed...so arm yourself and learn what it is like to attack with a weapon so you are more familiar when the attack comes your way. Second assumption is that there will be more than one attacker, then train with multiple attackers so you get the feel of what it takes to deal with them, and what it is like to be one of the multiple attackers.

 

[JMulford]

No, by effectiveness, I mean that it is an applicable defense. A gun or a knife is obviously the most effective but I don't have any reason to believe I will ever need to use anything for self defense as I don't put myself in those situations. Anything can obviously happen though. This is a hobby for me that I've picked up but if I'm putting the time in, I don't want it to be hollow.

And from what I have seen, Kenpo and Kung Fu are similar in base(punches/kicks), whereas Aikijutsu is throw-based.

 

[MI_martialist]

So, by effectiveness, you want something that will work, right? And you believe you will not be involved in a confrontation with a weapon. You say you will not need to use a firearm or a knife, which could be...but can you guarantee that one won't be used on you? What if you are attacked by someone with a knife or gun. Unless you learn how to use a weapon, and attack with a weapon, you will never really understand the weapon or understand what to do if you are attacked with someone wielding one.

If you don't want it to be hollow, then train with weapons.

In case you don't believe me: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt

In all honesty, your position is one of ignorance...as in not knowing, not a personal judgement. It is also very contradictory.

No, by effectiveness, I mean that it is an applicable defense. A gun or a knife is obviously the most effective but I don't have any reason to believe I will ever need to use anything for self defense as I don't put myself in those situations. Anything can obviously happen though. This is a hobby for me that I've picked up but if I'm putting the time in, I don't want it to be hollow.

And from what I have seen, Kenpo and Kung Fu are similar in base(punches/kicks), whereas Aikijutsu is throw-based.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it's not daito ryu it most likely is not actual aikijujutsu or aikijutsu, but something made up. If you enjoy it great just don't believe it as authentic

Aikijutsu, IMO, is a descriptor. It may be mis-used from a linguistic standpoint, but Daito-ryu is not the only path to aikijutsu/aikijujutsu. There are many styles of Jujutsu, and if someone adjusted them to make aiki a primary principle, they could rightly be called Aikijujutsu. Now, whether it should be called that or Aikido (post-Meiji-restoration naming rules), is not really that significant to most people outside Japan.

 

[MI_martialist]

I know it is of topic, but many of these new versions of Jujutsu, etc., should in NO WAY be associated with any jutsu...it is misleading to say the least...

Aikijutsu, IMO, is a descriptor. It may be mis-used from a linguistic standpoint, but Daito-ryu is not the only path to aikijutsu/aikijujutsu. There are many styles of Jujutsu, and if someone adjusted them to make aiki a primary principle, they could rightly be called Aikijujutsu. Now, whether it should be called that or Aikido (post-Meiji-restoration naming rules), is not really that significant to most people outside Japan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know it is of topic, but many of these new versions of Jujutsu, etc., should in NO WAY be associated with any jutsu...it is misleading to say the least...

It's not really misleading to students, since most don't know the difference designated between "jutsu" and "do", anyway. That's why I said it was more linguistic than anything. I know some folks who splintered off from NGA, and one of them called what he did Nihon Goshin Aikijutsu. To most of us, it was a nearly meaningless difference - just a way to designate it as not the art it sprang from. If it communicates that, it's an accurate usage (to the people it really should matter to).

 

[JP3]

Definitely. This will be down the road at least a little ways and could even involve the dropping of MT, although there are many things that I enjoy about MT, so we'll see.

I'm more curious about how well people think Kenpo and Aikijutsu would flow together if I chose to head down that path.

It's not Kenpo and Aikijutsu, but I put Muay Thai and aikido together, and my personal technique is sharp is what I prefer. It seems a weird mix but it flows for me. I think that the aikido/aikijutsu can flow together, with just about anything, once you've acquired sufficient internalization with both. Trying to learn them at the same time, because of the mindset differences in the teaching/learning process, may be a bit problematic.

 

[drop bear]

It's not Kenpo and Aikijutsu, but I put Muay Thai and aikido together, and my personal technique is sharp is what I prefer. It seems a weird mix but it flows for me. I think that the aikido/aikijutsu can flow together, with just about anything, once you've acquired sufficient internalization with both. Trying to learn them at the same time, because of the mindset differences in the teaching/learning process, may be a bit problematic.

You just train to develop more than 1 mindset.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You just train to develop more than 1 mindset.

Early in development, there can be direct conflicts, if they are not taught by instructors who understand the other art. I think that's what JP is getting at. Once some of the basics are internalized, it's easier.

Still possible, either way.

 

[drop bear]

Early in development, there can be direct conflicts, if they are not taught by instructors who understand the other art. I think that's what JP is getting at. Once some of the basics are internalized, it's easier.

Still possible, either way.

There is direct conflicts early in development anyway.

Ever seen a middle aged man try to learn to dance?

They look like they are made out of wood.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is direct conflicts early in development anyway.

Ever seen a middle aged man try to learn to dance?

They look like they are made out of wood.

I resemble that remark, DB.

Some arts/styles seem to be harder for most folks to pick up simultaneously. Doesn't mean they can't be done, though. I'd probably put Shotokan Karate and NGA (as I learned it) in that camp, but one of my favorite partners did just that pairing.

 

[drop bear]

I resemble that remark, DB.

Some arts/styles seem to be harder for most folks to pick up simultaneously. Doesn't mean they can't be done, though. I'd probably put Shotokan Karate and NGA (as I learned it) in that camp, but one of my favorite partners did just that pairing.

Yeah what one of my instructors called Gringo Capoeira.

I think it is a worthwhile skill to develop regardless how gumby you will look.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah what one of my instructors called Gringo Capoeira.

I think it is a worthwhile skill to develop regardless how gumby you will look.

Looking gumby is a personal skill of mine.

 

[MI_martialist]

You are correct in that most people don't understand the differences. It is nonetheless still misleading, and a true watering down of meaning of words. It is wholly inappropriate and should not be done. I see it akin to false advertising!!!

I do not believe we are talking about a linguistic subtlety...like a slight nuance in meaning between words...they are completely different and have very different meanings.

It's not really misleading to students, since most don't know the difference designated between "jutsu" and "do", anyway. That's why I said it was more linguistic than anything. I know some folks who splintered off from NGA, and one of them called what he did Nihon Goshin Aikijutsu. To most of us, it was a nearly meaningless difference - just a way to designate it as not the art it sprang from. If it communicates that, it's an accurate usage (to the people it really should matter to).