Katrina Exposes Poverty and Race relations

[7starmantis]

Statistics aren't biased. (Bias actually has a technical meaning here, and it's very rare to use a statistic with nontrivial bias--the s.d. is the only commonly used biased statistic.) Most of what people are throwing around are descriptive statistics, but in any event, statistics are numbers, and inferential statistics gives conclusions (at a certain confidence level, with certain simplifying assumptions). It's what people make of those that is where the bias truly enters.

Thats not completely true. In statistics a bias is deffined as: A statistical sampling or testing error caused by systematically favoring some outcomes over others.

Nontrivial statistical biases are quite rampant. Inferential statistics do give a conclusions or prediction such as:

2. Nationwide African Americans have 3x greater chance of being poor.

That was my point, statistics as a whole and especially inferential statistics are slave to their creators bias. Your talking about proven statistics. To say inferential statistics as a whole give conclusions at a certain confidence level and with a certain simplifying assumption is pretty naive if you ask me.
Yes, your correct that peoples interpretation to statistics offer a large margin for bias but even larger so may be the bias of the creator. Either way, there is quite a large margin for error in blindly stating statistics as proof of anything, especially something as furtive as "soft racism".

7sm

 

[sgtmac_46]

I again point out the irony in the fact that the state and local governments of the most imporverished areas are always not only democratic, but far left democratic. Apparently well-meaning socialist ideas have not only NOT made things better, but have, if anything, made things worse. The audacity to fail after generations of attempted social engineering and then try and blame "republicans" for their failures is astounding. Apparently the excuses for failure never end, most especially the social engineers excusing their own failures. Apprently they failed because I didn't "care" enough. Is this some kind of sick joke?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thats not completely true. In statistics a bias is deffined as: A statistical sampling or testing error caused by systematically favoring some outcomes over others.

Nontrivial statistical biases are quite rampant. Inferential statistics do give a conclusions or prediction such as: That was my point, statistics as a whole and especially inferential statistics are slave to their creators bias. Your talking about proven statistics. To say inferential statistics as a whole give conclusions at a certain confidence level and with a certain simplifying assumption is pretty naive if you ask me.
Yes, your correct that peoples interpretation to statistics offer a large margin for bias but even larger so may be the bias of the creator. Either way, there is quite a large margin for error in blindly stating statistics as proof of anything, especially something as furtive as "soft racism".

7sm

In addition, those "statistics" give no rational explaination as to why African Americans are 3X's times more likely to live in poverty. There is only the insinuation without support that it is the result of some nebulously ill defined racist conspiracy. The support is only on the number, yet those spouting these numbers attempt to imply that the statistic is evidence of FAR MORE than it is actually evidence of.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It could also be that what an individual considers to be a "true fact" is almost always colored by self-confirming biases.

From where I'm standing, a "true fact" is that racism and poverty exist in this country in abundant portions. Another "true fact" is that most people simply don't give a damn about it.

In fact, you'll notice a common trend to dealing with racism in this country --- a sentiment which sgtmac_46 just echoed --- is that those silly blacks need to just start acting more white. And if they don't, well, its obviously they're own damn fault.

Color me surprised.

Ironically, I just read heretic's attack here. I'm not surprised either. Last time I checked, when has hard work and determination been called "acting white". Oh, wait, that's the class label many leftists give to "uppity blacks" who are successful and refuse to make excuses. "Acting white" "Uncle toms" call it what you will.

Could be that the problem is that the black community, reinforced by self-describedf "centrists" like heretic, have labelled hard work and determination as "acting white" and, hence, undersirable.

Thanks for illustrating that so well, heretic. I think we are starting to get to the core what the REAL problem is. Hard work, determination and success are "acting white", and that's a bad thing. We preach to the black community "don't 'act white'" because then you're a "sellout".

 

[heretic888]

Ironically, I just read heretic's attack here. I'm not surprised either. Last time I checked, when has hard work and determination been called "acting white". Oh, wait, that's the class label many leftists give to "uppity blacks" who are successful and refuse to make excuses. "Acting white" "Uncle toms" call it what you will.

Could be that the problem is that the black community, reinforced by self-describedf "centrists" like heretic, have labelled hard work and determination as "acting white" and, hence, undersirable.

Thanks for illustrating that so well, heretic. I think we are starting to get to the core what the REAL problem is. Hard work, determination and success are "acting white", and that's a bad thing. We preach to the black community "don't 'act white'" because then you're a "sellout".

Ah, I see.

So, its "the black community's" fault that racism exists. It all makes sense now! Its their own damn fault!!

As I've said in the past, personal responsibility and social opportunity need to be balanced. All I've heard on this thread is one side or the other claiming for one or the other. Gee, imagine my surprise.

I can agree with the observation that certain elements within the Black American culture are self-destructive, something which individuals like Bill Cosby have pointed out in the past. Then again, those same tribalistic, xenophobic, 'ethnic' trends exist in White American culture, too --- we just call them 'cowboys' and 'macho men'. Y'know, instead of 'gangstaz' and 'playaz'.

I do find it really weird when people claim that its a minority's fault their persecuted against. Next thing you know, we'll be hearing the thousands of years of female oppression happened because "they wuz askin' fer it!".

Laterz.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ah, I see.

So, its "the black community's" fault that racism exists. It all makes sense now! Its their own damn fault!!

Nice attempt at a fallacious argument. Since their is no evidence that racism continues to perpetuate their current problems, and much evidence exists to suggest otherwise, your insertion of the idea "the black community is at fault of racism" reinforces a false argument. It isn't racism that is keeping the black community down, it's the self-imposed beliefs that have. You inadvertantly outlined one yourself. The idea that hard work and success are "acting white" and that is hence undesirable. You said that yourself, even though i'm sure that's not the point you hoped to make with that statement.

As I've said in the past, personal responsibility and social opportunity need to be balanced. All I've heard on this thread is one side or the other claiming for one or the other. Gee, imagine my surprise.

I know your claim is balance, but I fail to see your balance in action. I fail to see how you are balancing your perspective with the allegation that the reason the african american community is not successful is racism.

I can agree with the observation that certain elements within the Black American culture are self-destructive, something which individuals like Bill Cosby have pointed out in the past. Then again, those same tribalistic, xenophobic, 'ethnic' trends exist in White American culture, too --- we just call them 'cowboys' and 'macho men'.

Yet you don't make excuses for those elements in "White American culture" (and rightly so) but you make them for black culture...Why?

I do find it really weird when people claim that its a minority's fault their persecuted against. Next thing you know, we'll be hearing the thousands of years of female oppression happened because "they wuz askin' fer it!".

Laterz.

And how are they persecuted against? Again, this is nothing but false argument to insert the idea that they ARE persecuted against. I've seen no evidence of large scale racism being responsible for current problems in Black America. You've given no evidence that they are. The anecdotal evidence only further shows to what extent the self-fulfilling prophecy effect has damaged black america. If anything, it is clear that the effects are self-imposed.


I would venture an argument that there shouldn't even BE a black america. The very notion is racist. Why align ourselves along racial lines at all. I had been lead to believe that the ideal was a raceless society, drawn along lines of merit. Yet, everyday, far from becoming a raceless society, i'm being told, by the left, that I must be overly concious and overly sensitive to race. WHY?! How is any of that going to make our world better? How is drawing attention to our differences going to make us all get along? The very concept ludicrous.

 

[heretic888]

Heretic's interesting observations of the day:

1) Persecution against Black Americans doesn't exist. Hrmph. Could'a fooled me.

2) Apparently, I don't criticize stupid Liberal ideas like affirmative action enough. Uh, whaah? :idunno:

3) "Hard work" = "acting white"?? Ummm...

4) At some point, it was decided I was supposed to outline my answer for every problem that every exists all on a single thread. Sorry, not happening.

Laterz.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Heretic's interesting observations of the day:

1) Persecution against Black Americans doesn't exist. Hrmph. Could'a fooled me.

Evidence please.

2) Apparently, I don't criticize stupid Liberal ideas like affirmative action enough. Uh, whaah? :idunno:

Irrelavent to the topic at hand.

3) "Hard work" = "acting white"?? Ummm...

Your words not mine.

4) At some point, it was decided I was supposed to outline my answer for every problem that every exists all on a single thread. Sorry, not happening.

Laterz.

You could just start with this one.

 

[heretic888]

You could just start with this one

My "solution" to racism concerning Black America would essentially be twofold:

1) On the level of the populace at large, there needs to be stricter penalties for racial discimination in the work place (including cases of clear-cut 'racial profiling' among our LEOs). Egalitarian values need to be emphasized more in our public schools, along with programs to foster Kohlbergian moral reasoning. Previously marginalized voices of public discourse need to be opened up in professional academia. A stronger safety net for both economy and medical care needs to be opened up for the impoverished on a case-by-case basis.

2) On the level of the Black community itself, strong leaders need to help solidify the community within itself. The dominant 'hip-hop' culture needs to be challenged for its blatant violence, homophobia, sexism, and racism. Only Black leaders will be able to successfully do this, not condemnations from the outside.

That's what I think needs to happen, although I'm fairly confident it won't happen because its essentially advocating a balanced approach.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My "solution" to racism concerning Black America would essentially be twofold:

1) On the level of the populace at large, there needs to be stricter penalties for racial discimination in the work place (including cases of clear-cut 'racial profiling' among our LEOs). Egalitarian values need to be emphasized more in our public schools, along with programs to foster Kohlbergian moral reasoning. Previously marginalized voices of public discourse need to be opened up in professional academia. A stronger safety net for both economy and medical care needs to be opened up for the impoverished on a case-by-case basis.

2) On the level of the Black community itself, strong leaders need to help solidify the community within itself. The dominant 'hip-hop' culture needs to be challenged for its blatant violence, homophobia, sexism, and racism. Only Black leaders will be able to successfully do this, not condemnations from the outside.

That's what I think needs to happen, although I'm fairly confident it won't happen because its essentially advocating a balanced approach.

And what happens if solution 1 is introduced, whole-sale, and solution 2 is not?

 

[heretic888]

And what happens if solution 1 is introduced, whole-sale, and solution 2 is not?

Half-*** results. Just look at the "success" of affirmative action.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Half-*** results. Just look at the "success" of affirmative action.

You mean much like our current results? I think we may have hit on something here.

You began by insinuating that my conclusion was racist, but now you have supported what I have been saying the whole time. Without a serious change in the culture that has come to be known as the black community, no amount of programs or social efforts will ever make things better. 30 plus years of programs have yielded "half-***" results at best. Why? Because many in the black community still view what is needed to get ahead as "acting white".

The very hip-hop culture that you have outlined embraces a criminal culture as an ideal, and you believe that racism is responsible for the overrepresentation of Blacks in the criminal justice system?

Teen pregnancy and single parent homes are epidemic in black communities, and you want to blame racism for poverty?

Education is seen as "acting white" and those that embrace it are "selling out" and you want to blame racism for lack of education in the black community?

The black community is failing itself. It's time it abandons the idea of a "black community" that it uses to insulate and segregate itself from the rest of America, and joins in the ideal that is America. Self-perpetuating victimhood has not profited it anything.

Even if, and lets assume for the sake of argument that it's true, racism still exists....what does it profit the black community to find it lurking around every corner? What does this mentality lend to the success of black america?

The segregration along racial lines in America is a poison, and it doesn't matter if it's a well-intentioned poison, the result is the same.

 

[heretic888]

You mean much like our current results? I think we may have hit on something here.

You began by insinuating that my conclusion was racist, but now you have supported what I have been saying the whole time. Without a serious change in the culture that has come to be known as the black community, no amount of programs or social efforts will ever make things better. 30 plus years of programs have yielded "half-***" results at best. Why? Because many in the black community still view what is needed to get ahead as "acting white".

The very hip-hop culture that you have outlined embraces a criminal culture as an ideal, and you believe that racism is responsible for the overrepresentation of Blacks in the criminal justice system?

Teen pregnancy and single parent homes are epidemic in black communities, and you want to blame racism for poverty?

Education is seen as "acting white" and those that embrace it are "selling out" and you want to blame racism for lack of education in the black community?

The black community is failing itself. It's time it abandons the idea of a "black community" that it uses to insulate and segregate itself from the rest of America, and joins in the ideal that is America. Self-perpetuating victimhood has not profited it anything.

Even if, and lets assume for the sake of argument that it's true, racism still exists....what does it profit the black community to find it lurking around every corner? What does this mentality lend to the success of black america?

Sorry if I hadn't made myself clear before, but my original position has always been that there are two sides to this coin.

There are the interior causes (emphasized by Conservatives) and exterior causes (emphasized by Liberals). They're both half-right. That's probably why pretty much every approach in the last half-century has ended up with the half-*** results I talked about before.

Gee, that's a lotta halves....

Racism is a reality, even if nothing other than sheer indifference to the cultural sensitivies of others (although, there is clearly more to it than that in certain areas of the country --- I'm a Georgia boy, m'self). At the same time, it will take strong leaders from within the Black community to overcome any such adversities. External social programs will only take it so far.

And I still think affirmative action, slavery reparations, and 'hate crimes' are bad ideas.

Laterz.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sorry if I hadn't made myself clear before, but my original position has always been that there are two sides to this coin.

There are the interior causes (emphasized by Conservatives) and exterior causes (emphasized by Liberals). They're both half-right. That's probably why pretty much every approach in the last half-century has ended up with the half-*** results I talked about before.

Gee, that's a lotta halves....

Racism is a reality, even if nothing other than sheer indifference to the cultural sensitivies of others (although, there is clearly more to it than that in certain areas of the country --- I'm a Georgia boy, m'self). At the same time, it will take strong leaders from within the Black community to overcome any such adversities. External social programs will only take it so far.

And I still think affirmative action, slavery reparations, and 'hate crimes' are bad ideas.

Laterz.

The problem comes with the fact that we HAVE been instituting solutions to those external causes of poverty over the last quarter-century. The result? Half-*** results would be an improvement. 30 years ago, you would have an argument about racial inequality in America. That institutional racism existed is not debateable, it did. That it continues, however, is a dubious argument.

If anything, white americans are overly sensitive to the idea of being labelled "racist" and go out of their way to appear "unbiased". I have seen this effect in police departments, where, in light of the allegations of "racial profiling" white officers are reluctant to engage in enforcement activity against blacks for anything but the most blatant violations of the law. That means that officers are avoiding contact with blacks unless they absolutely have to. Don't think that's happening? Think again. The result?

Communities that can ill afford the lack of police protection, are seeing less and less proactive police enforcement. Police officers are afraid of being labelled a racist for doing their jobs, and receiving punitive actions that could result in the loss of their jobs and civil law suits. Then, the very same people who alleged that cops were racist who were targeting blacks, are now being called racist for avoiding targeting blacks and black communities. Irony.

The belief that racism continues in 2005, however, is nothing but baggage, and it's baggage that is weighing the black community down. It's not big surprise that one of the surest ways to success for an individual black american, is to have himself ripped away from what we referr to collectively as the "black community". Black americans raised apart from that culture prosper in white america.

Why is it hard to believe that it is that black culture itself that has poisoned the opportunities of black americans?

 

[arnisador]

Thats not completely true. In statistics a bias is deffined as: A statistical sampling or testing error caused by systematically favoring some outcomes over others.

That's not what the bias of a statistic means; that's a biased sample. We were speaking of the bias of a statistic, I thought. (The field of statistics is a subject; a statistic is a random variable.) The bias of a statistic is the difference between its expectation and the population parameter it estimates. The standard deviation is the only quantity commonly estimated by a biased statistic.

That was my point, statistics as a whole and especially inferential statistics are slave to their creators bias. Your talking about proven statistics. To say inferential statistics as a whole give conclusions at a certain confidence level and with a certain simplifying assumption is pretty naive if you ask me.

I can't imagine how so.

The details of the test are public. There's a confidence level, normality or other such assumptions, a sample, and a calculation. Unless the sample is not collected correctly, what can go wrong? The problems come when people try to interpret the results.

Yes, your correct that peoples interpretation to statistics offer a large margin for bias but even larger so may be the bias of the creator.

This just isn't so. If I reject the null hypothesis that p=.5 at the .05 level, we all know exactly what that means. Tell me the sample size and power (beta) and we're set. It doesn't matter who created the test, as long as they performed it correctly.

We argue when we interpret that result ("You're cheating me by using an unfair coin!", "No I'm not, the test gave the wrong result!"), or if we don't agree that the .05 level is adequate, or we don't agree about the normal approximation applying, etc.

A statistical test is a mathematical procedure. What it means is a scientific argument. There's a difference. You're conflating a calculation with its intepretation. Whether your car was or was not traveling more than 65 mph is a matter of measurement, which will include a margin of error. Whether that's too fast is another matter.

I can construct a test that's likely to give the results I want. There's a famous case of environmental testing where the companies tested themselves using a stringent alpha but with no power--basically, a test that could never declare a river polluted because it always gave it the benefit of the doubt. But if you see the test, you'd know that that was so. Just saying "I tested it and I'm right and you're wrong" isn't statistics. One reports more than just a Yes or No; at the very least, the alpha and the distribution assumed.

I recommend Statistics as Principled argument by Robert P. Abelson.

 

[Tgace]

Even Anthropologists cant seem to get around the "race" issue. Interesting article at...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/gill.html

Does discussing human variation in a framework of racial biology promote or reduce racism? This is an important question, but one that does not have a simple answer. Most social scientists over the past decade have convinced themselves that it runs the risk of promoting racism in certain quarters. Anthropologists of the 1950s, 1960s, and early 1970s, on the other hand, believed that they were combating racism by openly discussing race and by teaching courses on human races and racism. Which approach has worked best? What do the intellectuals among racial minorities believe? How do students react and respond?

Three years ago, I served on a NOVA-sponsored panel in New York, in which panelists debated the topic "Is There Such a Thing as Race?" Six of us sat on the panel, three proponents of the race concept and three antagonists. All had authored books or papers on race. Loring Brace and I were the two anthropologists "facing off" in the debate. The ethnic composition of the panel was three white and three black scholars. As our conversations developed, I was struck by how similar many of my concerns regarding racism were to those of my two black teammates. Although recognizing that embracing the race concept can have risks attached, we were (and are) more fearful of the form of racism likely to emerge if race is denied and dialogue about it lessened. We fear that the social taboo about the subject of race has served to suppress open discussion about a very important subject in need of dispassionate debate. One of my teammates, an affirmative-action lawyer, is afraid that a denial that races exist also serves to encourage a denial that racism exists. He asks, "How can we combat racism if no one is willing to talk about race?"

 

[7starmantis]

I recommend Statistics as Principled argument by Robert P. Abelson.

I have plenty of reading material in the three textbooks (each for at least $90) I had to purchase for my advanced statistics class this semester.
Your point about stats, which I couldn't disagree more with is interesting, but not for this thread.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Was someone saying that the 1960's liberal War on Poverty was unsuccessful?

Apparently that person lacks a friggen clue...or a single damned fact.

Also, did someone happen to criticize liberal policies as being damaging? Maybe someone can explain to me why these downward trends seem to stabilize or reverse after 2000...I'm sure it has something to do with 9/11...

Look, the statistics are pretty clear and I'm just going to keep throwing them out. They show a disparity in access to health care, education, economic opportunities, employment, fair wages, etc...anyone who looks at this and cannot see even a teeny tiny bit of discrimination is seriously disabled by their ideology. In fact, the very insinuation that ALL of this is somehow the fault of the groups in question is, in fact, racist.

You can read about the reality behind these statistics. You can see what people who live these numbers really go though. Ehrenreich and Kozol lay it out well and the two minutes that one takes to click on the links is not nearly enough time to read, much less think about what was actually posted.

Hurricane Katrina showed this cluster**** to us all and now people are frantically trying to correct the mistakes with Hurricane Rita. Fine, we'll pull out all of the poor minorities this time. Evacuate them. Then what?

 

[Tgace]

So how did the "unpoor" African Americans get that way? Bet they appreciate the idea that without the goodwill and support of uncle sam they would still be poor.

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/99-07-13-03.all.html

New Haven, Conn. -- In his provocative new book, "Why Americans Hate Welfare," Yale professor Martin Gilens shows that both print publications and television news broadcasters routinely misrepresent poor Americans of all races. But poor blacks, he shows, are portrayed more negatively, and less accurately, than poor whites.

The media, Gilens argues, offer a portrait of American poverty that exaggerates racial differences and unfairly associates blacks with the least attractive subgroups of the poor. And when stories on poverty do take on a more sympathetic tone (as they tend to do during economic downturns), images of poor blacks are replaced with images of poor whites.

Examining over 40 years of news coverage in both television news and print newsmagazines, Gilens found that the media neglect sympathetic groups like the working poor and the elderly poor. Furthermore, despite the inflated numbers of black faces in most poverty stories, these relatively sympathetic groups are far more likely to be portrayed as white.

"Most journalists reject the stereotype of blacks as lazy," Gilens writes. "But in the everyday practice of their craft, and especially in their choice of photographs to illustrate stories on poverty, these same journalists portray poor blacks as more blameworthy than poor whites."

The result of this skewed reporting is not simply that blacks are most often associated with poverty, but that they are perceived by a majority of white Americans as responsible for their own condition. This stereotype of blacks easily translates into widespread hostility to welfare. Yet, Gilens shows, it is not welfare itself that Americans hate, but the idea of assisting a class of people perceived as "undeserving."

In this bold and carefully researched study, Gilens presents a new way of viewing the poor, racial relations, and ourselves. "Why Americans Hate Welfare" should be on every reflective citizen's reading list.

Among Gilens' findings:

-- The portrayal of the poor as black began in the mid-1960s, coinciding with a shift toward more negative news coverage of poverty and welfare.

-- Both the press and the public exaggerate the extent to which poverty is a black problem.

-- 65 percent of poor Americans shown in network television news are African American.

-- 62 percent of poor Americans shown in newsmagazines are black.

-- In surveys, over half of the public says most poor people are black; only one out of four say most poor people are white.

-- In reality, African Americans make up only 29 percent of the country's poor.

-- Racial misperceptions influence Americans' beliefs about the poor and their willingness to help. Among white Americans who think most welfare recipients are black, only 31 percent say "most people on welfare want to work." But among those who think most welfare recipients are white, fully 55 percent hold this view.

-- Americans strongly support both the "carrot" and "stick" of welfare reform. Welfare time limits and work requirements are very popular with the American public, but so is increased funding for job training, child care, transportation to work, medical care, and other services to help welfare recipients support themselves. Despite their cynicism toward welfare recipients, Americans want to do more to help the "deserving poor," both black and white, Gilens found. Most middle-class Americans are even willing to pay higher taxes if the money were used to fight homelessness or to provide education, medical care or job training for the poor.

 

[heretic888]

Actually, upnorthkyosa, I specifically criticized affirmative action, slavery reparations, and 'hate crime' legislation. Not 'Liberal policies' in their totality (which I typically agree with as far as civil liberties, social programs, and healthcare go).

In my opinion, the three aforementioned policies are not only ineffective in regards to their prescribed goals (either invoking minor improvements or reverse improvements), but also foster an attitude of reverse-discrimination (which I consider to be a form of racism).

Have a good 'un. :asian: