Katrina Exposes Poverty and Race relations
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Sapper6
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i've refrained from this thread since it's inception, but i just couldn't resist input. there are no "race relations" involved with the emergency response to the hurrcane relief. i don't think anyone had RACE in mind when deciding what action was appropriate. our own selves created a race issue. it just so happened that a major natural disaster took place in possibly the poorest part of the country...? i dont think so.
you can't possibly blame poverty on race, a certain group of people, or a certain demographic of citizens. i've seen poverty exist in all races of American citizens, mostly in native american and white folks in my parts of the world.
it just so happens that a major natural disaster took place in a prevolent black part of the county, so people claim racist bias. that's BS! a majority of American citizens polled (look it up) feel that the local and state gov't is to blame for such atroctities. keep in mind the mayor of NO is black. race played no part in this, except, this is possibly the most profound tragedy on the black citizen of America since slavery. it's not the government's fault, regardless of what you think.
you can't possibly blame poverty on race, a certain group of people, or a certain demographic of citizens. i've seen poverty exist in all races of American citizens, mostly in native american and white folks in my parts of the world.
it just so happens that a major natural disaster took place in a prevolent black part of the county, so people claim racist bias. that's BS! a majority of American citizens polled (look it up) feel that the local and state gov't is to blame for such atroctities. keep in mind the mayor of NO is black. race played no part in this, except, this is possibly the most profound tragedy on the black citizen of America since slavery. it's not the government's fault, regardless of what you think.
sgtmac_46
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Isn't the city of New Orleans and state of La predominantly Democratic? How have those policies worked out for them? Must be nice to be directly responsible for the state and local government of an area, and then still be able to turn around and blame those "Darn republicans" when things go wrong. Sorry, nice try though.upnorthkyosa said:
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Red state or blue?sgtmac_46 said:
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Here are a few things that you missed...Sapper6 said:
If their is no problem with racial inequality, then how do you explain the above?
sgtmac_46
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By choice. And it is that flawed decision that relegates them to abject poverty, not something done "to" them.upnorthkyosa said:
Yes, and a far higher percentage of single parent house holds, and a higher crime rate. Also, a far higher violence rate in inner cities, where the violence is black on black, not white on black.upnorthkyosa said:
Part of the explaination is stated above, self-imposed integrated neighborhoods and abject poverty. Include with this views on sexuality and cultural views on education and it's importance, and you have a self-imposed continuous multi-generational cycle of poverty.
And asian americans and increasingly, hispanic americans. How many other ethnic groups are going to outperform blacks before folks realize that the problem is cultural, i.e. many blacks views on the value of education. It is the perception of racism, and the helpless mentality of many blacks that leads them to discount that education is a viable way out of poverty.upnorthkyosa said:
One need look no further than how the, so called, black community views successful, educated black men and women as "sell-outs", rather than raising them as evidence of what is possible.
There certainly are, for the above reasons. Education and hard work lead to financial success, financial success leads to more possibilities, including better health care. The insinuation that lack of health care is racist in origin is a complete fabrication.upnorthkyosa said:
Yes, because blacks choose to remain in areas around major cities that were usually built up around major waterways and are, by nature, flood zones. Again, if we forced black folks in to the areas at gun point, then put barbed wire up around them, you might have an argument.upnorthkyosa said:
Moving, however, is a simple matter of hoping on a bus and leaving. A few weeks savings in a flood zone, and you could buy an apartment and find a job anywhere else. If these areas, as you say, are such dungeons of poverty and hopelessness, moving anywhere should be an improvement.
See above. Also, many whites buy something called "flood insurance". Again, a benefit of hardwork and education.upnorthkyosa said:
Keep in mind, many black neighborhoods border other ethnic neighborhoods. The difference between the two, however, is a cultural view on work and education that are somewhat different.
You mean racism like suggesting that black americans are doomed to be helpless victims, that they are incapable helping themselves. Yeah, I agree, there is a lot of racism out there.upnorthkyosa said:
You mean anecdotal reports? Oh yeah, there are anecdotal reports of space aliens as well. You have to ask yourself, at what point does the overriding belief in racism, becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.upnorthkyosa said:
For example, if a black man is a HUGE believer that white folks are racist, sees a white guy get picked up before him on a rescue operation, is he victim of racism or is it fabricated in his mind. Does he believe it's true? Most definitely. Will he tell everyone who will listen it will true, and distort the event to even more strongly support his claim? Without a doubt. Is he objectively right? Probably not.
The problem is, that you are so blinded by ideology, you don't even realize that your "statistics" don't support your assertions. You should be aware of what the difference between causation and correlation is. The problem is that what you see is an example of the correlation with poverty. Further, it would seem clear to me that inner city life is a trap of poverty, yet many, many people choose to remain. Why? Not because they are forced to live there. Just as likely, xenophobic fear of the "white boogie man" keeps many blacks a prisoner of their own preconcieved notions of how the world works.upnorthkyosa said:
It's ironic, those blacks that choose to break the cycle of poverty, and leave those communities to receive and education and improve themselves, are very often successful.
I have to wonder why you continue to embrace this philosophy of victimhood. I would wonder, at least, if I didn't know. The idea of class and race warfare are age old strategies in the play book of the left. The left wants prosperity for every American, but only if they can take credit for it. Many on the left will sabotague any real attempt to bring prosperty to many of the poor.
Further, the very suggestion that the poor can bring themselves out of poverty, is looked as heresy by the self-appointed saviors of the poor. One need look no further than at the treatment of Bill Cosby for dare to suggest that black Americans need to embrace education, and fight teen pregnancy, to help themselves out of poverty, to see how the left treats those who preach true empowerment.
The message they want you to remember, is that they, and they alone, can help you, so you must follow their party line. It's a message of pure, 100% USDA choice BS. Only you can make your life better, and it's not by buying in to the line that you have to vote for their guy, or tow the partyline.
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So, your rebuttle is "it's their own fault!!!"
sgtmac_46
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Don't like that do you? Suggesting that someone might be a little responsible for their plight, when they so obviously are, has always been heresy to the left.upnorthkyosa said:
Well, at what point does a person finally throw off the chains that he himself holds the keys too, and begins to make himself a better life. According to you,hopefully never. Those chains are too useful to the party.
Remember, it isn't poor people allegedly voting republican. So what interest would republicans have in maintaining poverty for a class of people that don't vote for them in that condition. No, it's the democrats and the left in general who have a multi-generational captive voting audience. They want to keep the poor beholden to them. God forbid very many of the poor ever decide to throw off the bonds of victimhood.
Don't you find it the least bit ironic that those who grew up poor, but with a strong work ethic and a stoic belief in there ability to succeed, invariably have? Yet, you seem to dispise those people. Why? Ask yourselves those questions, and get back with me.
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sgtmac_46
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Again, you're clinging to statistics as if they are a mantra, when they don't suggest anything near what you hoped. All ethnic groups are leaving Black Americans behind in those categories, not just whites. Further, you might want to remember that "Latinos" includes large numbers of aliens, many of whom are still struggling with English, and yet they are struggling to improve their lives in America through hardwork.
If this were racist in nature, it would only be whites getting ahead, but that isn't the case. If only a specific ethnic group is getting behind, you have to start asking yourself why.
Further, if the same old tired race and class warfare victimization mentality has been perpetuated for several decades, and it hasn't profited black america any, at what point are many going to start asking why.
Basically, to paraphrase "American History X: Has anything you've done, made your life better." If the answer is "No", then you might want to start thinking about something different.
If this were racist in nature, it would only be whites getting ahead, but that isn't the case. If only a specific ethnic group is getting behind, you have to start asking yourself why.
Further, if the same old tired race and class warfare victimization mentality has been perpetuated for several decades, and it hasn't profited black america any, at what point are many going to start asking why.
Basically, to paraphrase "American History X: Has anything you've done, made your life better." If the answer is "No", then you might want to start thinking about something different.
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sgtmac_46
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I've actually read this book. It's assertion is as skewed as yours. Lack of education in America leads to jobs that provided subsistence level income. Ironically, though, even subsistence level incomes in America, are a far better standard of living than any around the world. But, again, this is why education is so important. It's also far from proving your "Racism" assertion.upnorthkyosa said:
Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between a reason, and an excuse. At what point do people take responsibility for their own lot in the world. The most successful people don't make excuses, where the least successful do. At what point do we decide to stop making excuses, and start doing what works.
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Since you know what I do IRL, I hope you could see that there is no way that would totally discount one's personal responsability for their own well being. However, I do think that there are external factors that are very weighty in this matter. The real question is, "How much control does one really have over their own fate?" And, like anything in nature, I would say total control is impossible.sgtmac_46 said:
sgtmac_46
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And what answers does your political ideology give to solve this problem? Do you have any answers, or is a caring, excuse, enough? What control do YOU have over anyone else's fate?upnorthkyosa said:
Further, at what point do excuses and bailing others out, become counter-productive? At what point does it lead to generations of passive reliance? I think we may already know the answers.
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I would like to know why you think Ms. Ehrenreich's work is skewed. Is it because she took the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" idea to task? Is it because she showed that attitude can only take you so far? Is is because she took all of the right wing mantras and attempted to show what could happen with a little elbow grease and was unsuccessful. Is it because you have no answer for the millions of people who experience this? She lived the life and discovered firsthand the reality of the situation. I would like to know why you think this is skewed...sgtmac_46 said:I've actually read this book. It's assertion is as skewed as yours. Lack of education in America leads to jobs that provided subsistence level income. Ironically, though, even subsistence level incomes in America, are a far better standard of living than any around the world. But, again, this is why education is so important. It's also far from proving your "Racism" assertion.
Again, you don't seem to understand the difference between a reason, and an excuse. At what point do people take responsibility for their own lot in the world. The most successful people don't make excuses, where the least successful do. At what point do we decide to stop making excuses, and start doing what works.
As to education, I agree that it is the key, however, the statement, "black culture is responsible for educational disparity" rings a bit hollow. For instance, I may have a problem going to school if sewage was running down the hallways...
See Jonathan Kozol's book Savage Inequalities.
For a better description of the disparity in health care see his other book Amazing Grace.
If you can look at this stuff and STILL claim that it is all there fault, then there is nothing I can do to change your opinion. However, that does not change the fact that you are wrong.
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It could be that, in her research, she set out to prove those things, not to discover the actual reality. She apparently was quite sure of the reality, so she was only interested in evidence that supported her assertion. Self-fulfilling prophecy anyone? It's kind of hard to take someone seriously who starts out with a chip on their shoulder, and then only looks for evidence to reinforce that belief.upnorthkyosa said:
And if their parents were serious about education, they would move them out of those areas. Many do, some remain. There is no force segregation anymore, it is all self-imposed.upnorthkyosa said:
I find the above excerpts humorous, in that the local and state leadership of these cities referred to above, all have the same mindset and political view as you. They believe that the poor are victims, and that social programs are the only hope. What has that accomplished in those cities? They keep voting for the same political ideology, the same mindset and keep getting the same results. People with your political ideology have power in those cities and states, and they have nothing to show for it but an incredibly high rate of poverty which you then attempt to use as evidence of racism? Give me break, you can't have leftist leadership screwing things up, and then want to blame evil, republican "whitey". If you folks broke it, you fix it.upnorthkyosa said:See Jonathan Kozol's book Savage Inequalities.
excerpts from his book - Savage Inequalities - East St. Louis, IL
excerpts from his book - Savage Inequalities - Chicago, IL
excerpts from his book - Savage Inequalities - Washington, DC
excerpts from his book - Savage Inequalities - New York, NY
excerpts from his book - Savage Inequalities - Camden, NJ
For a better description of the disparity in health care see his other book Amazing Grace.
excerpts from his book - Amazing Grace
If you can look at this stuff and STILL claim that it is all there fault, then there is nothing I can do to change your opinion. However, that does not change the fact that you are wrong.
Nothing but the same old tired answers, with the same old tired results. Your political philosophy has done nothing for the people that live in those areas. By your own admission, their plight keeps getting worse, while their leadership keeps spewing the same tired, racial/class warfare propaganda as an excuse why THEY have failed. Try again.
What's furthermore, all you've made a case for is the disparity of wealth in given areas, i.e. the inner city. The only case you've made is that poverty persists in those areas. It would seem to me that choosing to remain in a poverty stricken area, might be a good recipe for remaining poor. I have to wonder at what point people will start asking what they are doing wrong.
One further point, you tried to make a point earlier it is impossible to have 100% control of your fate. What purpose does that statement even serve. If you throw your hands up and call yourself helpless, what have you accomplished, other than to ensure the power of others over you for the rest of your life. I believe it is this perpetual helplessness is a sickness.
It is impossible to eliminate inequalities between people...at least not without some sort of totalitarian economic system whereby equality is enforced. America has done a good job, however, of producing the most good for the most people. The very idea that economic equality is the goal is a false premise. If we can create an economy where every person can secure the necessities in life if they work for it, that is a successful society. If some choose not to, that is not the fault of the system.
What's more, I have yet to hear a recommendation made by you that will ensure that these folks escape poverty. What do you suggest doing FOR them that will remove them from poverty? Do you suggest simply buying them out of poverty? Providing substantial financial support for every single person considered poor? Haven't we tried that? How's that working out?
Actually for the record, I did read the articles. Let me clarify my point. Statistics are as biased and skewed as opinions and conjectures. Your using inferential statistics as facts. Problem is, do you know the sample group used in these statistics? Then you could go into the huge debate over wether or not inferential statistics accurately predict outcomes. Aside from those rabbit holes lets just address your use of these few "stats". What does #1 prove? Lets see, if we did accept it as true, what would it show, racism? How so? Racism among whom?upnorthkyosa said:
Lets go to #2, again a stat that shows no fact or connection to racism. Your listing empty facts as your articles did. You must show a connection. Your other "stats" are simply listings of unproven, infactual arguments with no backbone of proof. And your using them to show racism...with no verifiable connection. Your articles and your posts refrain from laying out an outline (which I have asked for several times) of connection between these empty "stats" and your cry of racism be it "soft" or "hard".
Your #7 is just ridiculous. Looting is looting, and I've seen it called that way regardless of race. Also your turning on your own side here as most of the media is crying the same thing you are.
Oh, and 97.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :idunno:
Thats what I mean, continuing the cycle of these "terms" is racism in my eyes. The fact that someones actions are regarded as "white" or as sgtmac said, "selling out" is the direct "hard" racism I'm talking about. Racism is a two way street and to ignore one lane of traffic will only get you in an accident.upnorthkyosa said:
7sm
Oh, and it seems the mayor of Galveston and surrounding areas are able to evacuate their people in a timely manner. My parents are having to evacuate today. Also many public buses are being used in the "projects" of Galveston, La Marque, Hitchcock, Santa Fe, etc... Dont try the race card here, I've lived in those areas, I know its population. It just takes someone who can get things done....maybe Katrina just exposed poor elected officials and poor planning and action on the government as a whole.
We can talk all we want about race being a factor in this N.O. issue, but how would you connect that to the increase in violent crimes in my city from evacuees of the New Orleans area. I train an FBI agent here and we had lunch...seems our police department is having alot of former New Orleans residents commiting crimes here in East Texas. Should I connect that to a certain race of people? Seems by your rule I should. But, I'll happily not do that and just connect that to a certain type of person, not color of person.
7sm
We can talk all we want about race being a factor in this N.O. issue, but how would you connect that to the increase in violent crimes in my city from evacuees of the New Orleans area. I train an FBI agent here and we had lunch...seems our police department is having alot of former New Orleans residents commiting crimes here in East Texas. Should I connect that to a certain race of people? Seems by your rule I should. But, I'll happily not do that and just connect that to a certain type of person, not color of person.
7sm
Statistics aren't biased. (Bias actually has a technical meaning here, and it's very rare to use a statistic with nontrivial bias--the s.d. is the only commonly used biased statistic.) Most of what people are throwing around are descriptive statistics, but in any event, statistics are numbers, and inferential statistics gives conclusions (at a certain confidence level, with certain simplifying assumptions). It's what people make of those that is where the bias truly enters.
I read it. Interesting, but highly anecdotal, despite the occasional stat. thrown in.upnorthkyosa said:
I do think of it as a local "living wage" law is being debated.
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