Katrina Exposes Poverty and Race relations

[Makalakumu]

There are plenty of other threads now to address points made in this thread. I want to focus on race for this discussion.

"That the city administration is now largely African American one could not say there is a racial bias there, I think that vigorous efforts to make sure all citizens were protected, but there, there is a bias built-in in human mobility. Many whites moved first to Jefferson Parish, the immediately upstream suburban parish during the fifties and sixties. They've been able to develop a fairly secure drainage system themselves and levee protection. So there is, class and, and wealth do play a big part in people's ability to respond and certainly those people with the least means lose everything."

In other words, the only racial component was decades ago. That is a very thin argument. Yet you wouldn't know this if you only looked at the description of the file. Again, after 4 or 5 decades, if a city government can not provide for the welfare of its city without outside help, that government is corrupt, inept, and has no business being in power. Why were they still in power? Because the people kept electing them. They kept putting them in office because they kept relying on that welfare check, on the policies of socialism.

White Flight started in the 50s and 60s but it didn't end at that time. The population NO turned from 70% white to almost the same black. This would take decades. You assertion that the only racial component being decades ago isn't supported. Nor does it explain the disparity in protection between white and black communities that Dr. Colten mentioned.

As far as richer communities being more able to provide for themselves, that makes sense.

Yes, it does make sense. The broader question that you refuse to address is why all of those communities happen to be white...

The question is, what kind of politics promotes richer communities and the uplifting of the poor? Sadly, for you, it isn't the welfare state and the economically crippling policies of the far left. Sadly for the residents of New Orleans, it wasn't those policies either.

This is a whole argument in itself. Take a look at the shanty towns that people live in around the world and in this country and tell me whether capitalism lifts up the poor.

In journalism, this would be criticized for being a vague statement. You see, you can't use the word "always been an issue" in conjunction with several nouns unless each and every one of them has always been an issue (including now).

If you provide a historical context for the statement and show that it always has been an issue, then you can. The context is implied in the interview. And the context exists if one wishes to actually research it. The truth is that for hundreds of years, white communities have always had better flood protections then black communities. In fact, in the past, levees were dynamited in poor black communities in order to save white communities. I'm not implying that that is what happened in NO, but I am trying to show that the underlying pattern of racial inequity in flood protection goes back a long way.

If you said "Dr. Colten talks about how economic disparity affects how people can prepare for flood relief", then I would agree. That just makes sense. Those with more money can prepare more.

Dr. Colten talks about economic disparity and specifically mentions that white communities are better protected then black communities.

But race isn't the issue now. The fact that most of the poor are black is irrelevant in terms of playing the race card.

It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. In fact, the entire argument swings on the observation. There is a positive correllation between poverty and race in the entire country and it is even stronger down south. This "correllation" is what Katrina exposed.

There is so much stuff here that you really have to make an effort to ignore it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Race+and+Poverty&btnG=Search

The bottom line is that no one should be more or less protected from natural disasters in this country because of race and poverty. We need an equitable system that deals with this.

upnorthkyosa

PS - your website is violating MTs copyright policy.

 

[7starmantis]

And I said I was done...

There are plenty of other threads now to address points made in this thread. I want to focus on race for this discussion.

It seems all the other threads you started are also about race :idunno:

White Flight started in the 50s and 60s but it didn't end at that time. The population NO turned from 70% white to almost the same black. This would take decades. You assertion that the only racial component being decades ago isn't supported. Nor does it explain the disparity in protection between white and black communities that Dr. Colten mentioned.

Ok, here is where racism becomes personal. What exactly is the reason for even caring what percentage a population is according to race? The fact that one population turned from 70% white to 70% black proves no racism. The fact that you are inferring that a population becoming 70% black is in some way bad is racism.

I've seen no true facts to support modern day disparity in protection between white and black communities. Would you mind listing some modern day communities that are more protected because they are "white". As well as some hard facts to show that the cause is racism?

Yes, it does make sense. The broader question that you refuse to address is why all of those communities happen to be white...

Your for one not very colorblind, you know if you free your mind, the rest will follow. Your touching on a point that is for one, not very stable, and two has no connection with flooding or New Orleans. The "fact" that richer communities are white is not a part of this tragedy or really a true statement. It all depends on where your looking.

This is a whole argument in itself. Take a look at the shanty towns that people live in around the world and in this country and tell me whether capitalism lifts up the poor.

Capitalism is another thread, but what do you mean by "look at the shanty towns that people live in around the world and in this country"? You need to do some traveling and get some education about "poor" in other areas ouside of America.

If you provide a historical context for the statement and show that it always has been an issue, then you can. The context is implied in the interview. And the context exists if one wishes to actually research it. The truth is that for hundreds of years, white communities have always had better flood protections then black communities. In fact, in the past, levees were dynamited in poor black communities in order to save white communities. I'm not implying that that is what happened in NO, but I am trying to show that the underlying pattern of racial inequity in flood protection goes back a long way.

Who's truth? Again, your reaching far into the past to show some modern day connection to racism which isn't there. I asked earlier, could you outline communities that receive more or less protection against flooding because of the race of its people? Also, you must attach verifiable proof that porr flood protection is in direct result of race of population. Thats a pretty hard statement to prove....oh yeah, I forgot, its "soft proof" you need right?

Dr. Colten talks about economic disparity and specifically mentions that white communities are better protected then black communities.

Here is what I've been trying to say for a while. Your expert mentions that white communities are better protected, I could go out and find someone who mentions black communities are better protected. What we need are not implied contexts and mentioned opinions, but true facts and verifiable proof of this connection. I dont see what you see, so you must outline it nad show it too me in a way that shows coorelation...so far you refuse to do that by simply saying, "read the newspaper or surf the internet".

The truth is that most people will find what they are determined to locate. If you are determined to find that racism is a factor for everything that happens, I do not doubt you will find enough "proof" to satisfy your search. However, I tend to approach the subject from a modern approach and choose to look at everyone equal. If racism is present in a situation it needs to be addressed, but blindly finding racism in everything is just wrong and in my opinion furthering true racism. Instead of look at people as black or white, why not address them as humans all of whom are equal. That being the case, its a little harder to prove your racism remarks. I'm not saying blindly ignore race, but c'mon its 2005 almost 2006 do we still need to notice a persons skin color first and foremost when we meet them?

It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. In fact, the entire argument swings on the observation. There is a positive correllation between poverty and race in the entire country and it is even stronger down south. This "correllation" is what Katrina exposed.

I dont agree. I guess "poverty" need to be defined better. Simply stating a fact however, doesn't proove a coorelation to racism. Everyting that glitters is not gold. You say, "a large population of those in poverty are black, this must mean its because of racism". Just a simply observation doesn't prove that. In fact, most of the people I know or have come in contact with through my volunteering and such that are coming to shelters and homeless and such are actually veterans. By your logic we could say there is a national descrimination against elderly veterans in america today.

The bottom line is that no one should be more or less protected from natural disasters in this country because of race and poverty. We need an equitable system that deals with this.

You and I are in total agreement here. We only differ in that you have a conspiracy theory about the way it currently is and I'm waiting for facts. I haven't seen any verifiable, stable proof that people are more or less protected from natural disasters in this country because of race. By your logic again, we could also state that since the major population of trailer parks is white, that white populations are far less protected from tornados because they are white.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

And I said I wouldn't post at work...

I'll try to be brief. White communities in New Orleans occupy the highest ground. Poor black communities occupy the lowest. White communities in LA have better flood protection systems then black communities. Historically, this has always been true. I've cited a bunch of books and articles that show this.

The question is, "is this because of race or economics?"

I say both. Race and poverty have a substantial correllation. There is an institute at the U of M that studies this and this alone.

I would be surprised if, in 2005, one would find someone deliberately undermining the safety of those of a different race. However, racial disparities in protections do exist. That is my point and I believe that it needs to be addressed.

Katrina exposed this disparity for Americans to see. I hope we come up with a constructive solution.

 

[heretic888]

However, I tend to approach the subject from a modern approach and choose to look at everyone equal.

Postmodernism trumps modernism.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287641/

Sept. 19, 2005 issue - It takes a hurricane. It takes a catastrophe like Katrina to strip away the old evasions, hypocrisies and not-so-benign neglect. It takes the sight of the United States with a big black eye—visible around the world—to help the rest of us begin to see again. For the moment, at least, Americans are ready to fix their restless gaze on enduring problems of poverty, race and class that have escaped their attention. Does this mean a new war on poverty? No, especially with Katrina's gargantuan price tag. But this disaster may offer a chance to start a skirmish, or at least make Washington think harder about why part of the richest country on earth looks like the Third World.

The poverty rate, 12.7 percent, is a controversial measurement, in part because it doesn't include some supplemental programs. But it's the highest in the developed world and more than twice as high as in most other industrialized countries, which all strike a more generous social contract with their weakest citizens. Even if the real number is lower than 37 million, that's a nation of poor people the size of Canada or Morocco living inside the United States.

Who are the poor? With whites making up 72 percent of the population, the United States contains more poor whites than poor blacks or Hispanics. In fact, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities reports that the increase in white poverty in nonurban areas accounts for most of the recent uptick in the poverty rate. But only a little more than 8 percent of American whites are poor, compared with 22 percent of Hispanics and nearly a quarter of all African-Americans (in a country that is 12 percent black). This represents a significant advance for blacks in recent decades, thanks to the growth of the black middle class, but it's still a shamefully high number. By contrast, immigration has sent poverty among Hispanics up, though it has not been as intractable for them across generations.

Isolation is the second big factor that makes poverty even worse. While racial segregation in housing is at its lowest levels since 1920, Sheryll Cashin, author of "The Failures of Integration," has found that only 5 to 10 percent of American families live in stable, integrated communities. More than half a century after Brown v. Board of Education, public schools are still almost totally segregated—the result of where people choose to live, not law. Blacks and whites increasingly go to school with more integrated Hispanics, but not with each other. One big change is that blacks seem only a little more interested in integration than whites.

Racism was clearly present in the aftermath of Katrina. Readers of Yahoo News noticed it when a pair of waterlogged whites were described in a caption as "carrying" food while another picture (from a different wire service) of blacks holding food described them as "looters." White suburban police closed at least one bridge to keep a group of blacks from fleeing to white areas. Over the course of two days, a white river-taxi operator from hard-hit St. Bernard Parish rescued scores of people from flooded areas and ferried them to safety. All were white. "A n--ger is a n--ger is a n--ger," he told a NEWSWEEK reporter. Then he said it again.

Obama, the only African-American in the U.S. Senate, says "the ineptitude was colorblind." But he argues that while—contrary to rapper Kanye West's attack on Bush—there was no "active malice," the federal response to Katrina represented "a continuation of passive indifference" on the part of the government. It reflected an unthinking assumption that every American "has the capacity to load up their family in an SUV, fill it up with $100 worth of gasoline, stick some bottled water in the trunk and use a credit card to check into a hotel on safe ground." When they did focus on race in the aftermath, many Louisianans let their fears take over. Lines at gun stores in Baton Rouge, La., snaked out the door. Obama stops short of calling this a sign of racism. For some, he says, it's a product of "sober concern" after the violence in the city; for others, it's closer to "racial stereotyping."

Harvard's Loury argued in a 2002 book, "The Anatomy of Racial Inequality," that it's this stereotyping and "racial stigma," more than overt racism, that helps hold blacks in poverty. Loury explains a destructive cycle of "self-reinforcing stereotypes" at school and work. A white employer, for instance, may make a judgment based on prior experience that the young black men he hires are likely to be absent or late for work. So he supervises them more closely. Resenting the scrutiny, the African-Americans figure that they're being disrespected for no good reason, so they might as well act out, which in turn reinforces their boss's stereotype. Everybody goes away angry.

Beyond the thousands of individual efforts necessary to save New Orleans and ease poverty lie some big political choices. Until Katrina intervened, the top priority for the GOP when Congress reconvened was permanent repeal of the estate tax, which applies to far less than 1 percent of taxpayers. (IRS figures show that only 1,607 wealthy people in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi even pay the tax, out of more than 4 million taxpayers—one twenty-fifth of 1 percent.) Repeal would cost the government $24 billion a year. Meanwhile, House GOP leaders are set to slash food stamps by billions in order to protect subsidies to wealthy farmers. But Katrina could change the climate. The aftermath was not a good omen for the Grover Norquists of the world, who want to slash taxes more and shrink government to the size where it can be "strangled in the bathtub."

This is a great article and it pretty much sums up the points I was trying to make.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Wow, and here I thought a powerful hurricane burst the levee in New Orleans and flooded the city. Turns out it was all and elaborate conspiracy to punish blacks and the poor.

I have to wonder what motive injecting race in to a natural disaster serves. There seems to be enough problems going around without turning this in to a race war. I would have hoped that the race baiters would have left natural disasters alone, but again, color me silly.

As far as poverty is concerned, I never understood it as a problem to be "eased" by someone else. Perhaps it's the perpetual victimhood mentality that makes people feel they are helpless and must "be rescued" from poverty that creates the endless cycle.

With the exception of the indigent and elderly, large enough but a relatively small total percentage of what we call poor, I find it hard to understand how able bodied people can be "perpetual" victims of poverty.

I'm sure I will get a list of all the socially accepted excuses as to why, but they'll come from people who don't know the difference between and excuse and a reason. Most likely those same people will congradulate themselves on their "compassion" for excusing the poor, while in the mean time condemning them to continued generations of excuses and poverty.

Oh well. Color me silly. I guess my "priveleged upbringing" doesn't grant me the insight in to poverty enough to excuse it.

I come from generations of working class Americans. Many times in the history of my family, circumstances made it impossible to maintain a successful living at a given location, so members of my family moved hundreds, even thousands of miles to seek employment and opportunity elsewhere. The result is that my family has never been rich, but we've been able to sustained ourselves to the point of self-reliance. Spoiled, I suppose.

I guess the idea of hard work, determination and resilience are outdated concepts. Why go through the effort if you can merely throw up your hands and declare helplessness, and demand the government "ease" your poverty.

The sad fact is, however, that we create more poverty through institutionalized helplessness than we will ever cure with government programs.

As for New Orleans, sad as the disaster is, the followup creates a prime opportunity for those former residents who desire lucrative employment. I have a cousin who is a local contractor, who took out a loan to buy construction equipment and headed down to New Orleans with a camper and a trailer full of equipment.

He's going to spend the next several months living out of a camper to work 16 hour days doing construction work in the New Orleans area. He won't have any recreation time, he won't see his family, and the conditions will likely be miserable, but he'll make a decent living for his family.

The rebuilding is likely to be the localized equivalent of the "New Deal" public works projects of the depression. Federal and State monies are being pumped in to the area to aid rebuilding efforts. Any former New Orleans residents who desire to work, will have plenty of it at a decent rate.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/091505_world_stories.shtml#2

I have come to this floor on many occasions. People around the world have commented on how shocked they are to see such poverty in America. While cities and localities pass anti-panhandling measures that criminalize begging tourists and visitors in downtown areas asking for help, Hurricane Katrina washed away America's veneer of populist opportunity, a country that has overcome its racist, slave-holding past, a country ready for world dominion because it has learned how to uplift the human spirit at home.

Katrina, in images as stark and undeniable as could be, has laid bare the Republican lie that its policies promote growth and prosperity for all Americans and leave no child behind, while Katrina put into our living rooms and the world's living rooms the cruel hoax that has been played on America and those who love America by the ruthless sybaritic power player elites who are as responsible for the conditions endured by too many Americans as they are for the embarrassing and breathtaking incompetencies we all witnessed just before Labor Day.

 

[Tgace]

So those of us who are not poor are favored by the "ruthless sybaritic power player elites"? If but for their good will we would all be poor too?

 

[7starmantis]

The articles that keep being posted (in place of actual personal posting) seem to really ring true my point that opinions, conjectures, and ideas are all around, but true fact is yet to be shown.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

So those of us who are not poor

Can I borrow $100?

 

[heretic888]

The articles that keep being posted (in place of actual personal posting) seem to really ring true my point that opinions, conjectures, and ideas are all around, but true fact is yet to be shown.

It could also be that what an individual considers to be a "true fact" is almost always colored by self-confirming biases.

From where I'm standing, a "true fact" is that racism and poverty exist in this country in abundant portions. Another "true fact" is that most people simply don't give a damn about it.

In fact, you'll notice a common trend to dealing with racism in this country --- a sentiment which sgtmac_46 just echoed --- is that those silly blacks need to just start acting more white. And if they don't, well, its obviously they're own damn fault.

Color me surprised.

 

[7starmantis]

It could also be that what an individual considers to be a "true fact" is almost always colored by self-confirming biases.

That is very true, you are 100% right. So let me clarify. Lets just take off the word "true" and leave Fact. By standard (websters) deffinition it is: Something demonstrated to exist
or we could go legal and say: The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence

I still would say opinions run rampant while facts are hard to come by in this thread.

From where I'm standing, a "true fact" is that racism and poverty exist in this country in abundant portions. Another "true fact" is that most people simply don't give a damn about it.

"True Fact" does not come from where someone is standing, fact stands alone, by itself. Your saying exactly what I've been pointing at. You say fact is that racism and poverty exist. ok that true, we aren't even discussing that. "In abundant portions" would be a fact needing to be proven with evidence....this is yet to be done in the case of Katrina. With that same proof needs to be some proving, "most people dont give a damn about it". Again, opinions are easily posted, but facts are hard to come by.

In fact, you'll notice a common trend to dealing with racism in this country --- a sentiment which sgtmac_46 just echoed --- is that those silly blacks need to just start acting more white. And if they don't, well, its obviously they're own damn fault.

Again, your viewpoint is valid and accepted, but not proven. I dont recal anyone saying "silly blacks need to act more white" in this thread. You putting words in others mouths doesn't help either.
As a point of fact, would you mind defining what you mean by "acting more white"? What is "white" as an act? Isn't that what racism truly is? Why is any action colored by race? Those who cry racism the loudest tend to be the least colorblind

Color me shocked

7sm

 

[Tgace]

Gotta paint over any "conservative" viewpoint with something....hmmm should I use the racism brush, the religious nut job brush or the uneducated redneck brush? Decisions, decisions....

 

[Tgace]

And just how do you "deal with poverty"?

The whole "stupid conservatives say just get a job" argument.....isnt that the "solution"? How do you "fight poverty" without getting the poor employed and earning money (which needs to begin with education, I guess. How do you get a high paying job without it?)? Is the "solution" simply giving the poor money?

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm convinced you didn't even read the articles posted. There are plenty of statistics quoted and you claim that facts are lacking...

Here are a few that you missed

1. 5% of people live in integrated neighborhoods. Decades after Brown vs the Board of Education.
2. Nationwide African Americans have 3x greater chance of being poor.
3. There are demonstratably significant gaps in education between white and black americans.
4. There are demonstratably significant gaps in access to health care between white and black americans.
5. There are demonstratable differences in flood control spending between white and black communities.
6. There are historically proven cases where floods have affected more poor blacks then whites.
7. There are specific instances in the media of direct racism...ie refugees and the difference between "looting" and "finding stuff."
8. There are specific reported instances where people involved in rescue operations passed up black people in favor of white.

Before you quote this and ask where, Just READ the articles...

This isn't too terribly difficult to see. And I'm wondering, why wouldn't any of these statistics apply to New Orleans...or are you so hellbent to support your opinions about racism that you'll ignore any evidence.

And, as to acting white, from the background you shared with me, I'm sure you know what an "apple" is...

 

[Makalakumu]

Is the "solution" simply giving the poor money?

Nothing about the solution is simple or cheap. Getting a job is one part, getting an education is one part, etc...

 

[Tgace]

I could yell READ THE ARTICLES at some folks too. Its obvious that few people want to read the other sides stuff.

 

[Tgace]

As to personal experience with racism.. why is it that when I present my experience, say with welfare abuse, its all "anecdotal evidence" and "well you only deal with the same small population..." yadda yadda. But (forgive me upnorth not a personal attack just an example) when some white kids dad works with the poor on an Indian reservation THAT is to be used as solid supporting evidence on that posters opinion regarding poverty, racism etc.? Either we have to agree that each person has valid points or that each persons personal experience is just "anecdotal".

 

[Makalakumu]

I could yell READ THE ARTICLES at some folks too. Its obvious that few people want to read the other sides stuff.

I read the articles posted in rebuttle and sometimes I find that I am wrong...

 

[Makalakumu]

As to personal experience with racism.. why is it that when I present my experience, say with welfare abuse, its all "anecdotal evidence" and "well you only deal with the same small population..." yadda yadda. But (forgive me upnorth not a personal attack just an example) when some white kids dad works with the poor on an Indian reservation THAT is to be used as solid supporting evidence on that posters opinion regarding poverty, racism etc.? Either we have to agree that each person has valid points or that each persons personal experience is just "anecdotal".

I see your point and I would say that "anecdotal evidence" is good when it has the numbers behind it. I think the reality behind the numbers reveals a lot.