Kataless Karate Pros & Cons

[kachi]

I see everyone's reasoning and you probably are all right. I have only been training for a few years so I definitely don't have the understanding and knowledge of MA to the extent that you guys have.
I think your right about the view of freestyle in the 2 countries because we do not train for competition or anything like that, we train for ourselves (I'm strongly opposed to sport and show adaptations of Karate). The term 'freestyle' in Australia means that it's just a more open style and is not bound by traditional rules and technique. We still have the basics of traditional Goju Ryu in our system but we modify moves and incorperate a few techniques from other styles into our curriculum.
Just to clear it up my Sensei does teach the bunkai behind kata (although we've never used the term 'Bunkai') and he believes in kata quite strongly.
I would like to go to a Patrick McCarthy seminar but I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to find one.

Brandon Fisher - I understand now that I don't have enough experience with MA and kata and I will not dismiss kata but instead try to further break down and decipher the deeper meaning behind kata, which I obviously have not done yet.

Exile - I did not call 'twendkata71' ignorant I said his remark about freetylists not learning kata because it's "too much work" was ignorant. I never mentioned sport in any of my posts either.

twendkata71 - You have given me an invaluable insight into kata and I will take everything you said on board. You are obviousy a very knowledgeable and experienced person and I thank you for sharing that with me. Also thanks for your advice and be sure that I will be using it in the near future.

 

[exile]

Kachi---thanks for your response. First point:

Exile - I did not call 'twendkata71' ignorant I said his remark about freetylists not learning kata because it's "too much work" was ignorant. I never mentioned sport in any of my posts either.

OK, but look, it's a very fine distinction between calling what someone says ignorant and calling them ignorant. Look up a few dictionary definitions and it'll become pretty clear pretty quickly that a terms like `ignorant' really applies to a person---it identifies a cognitive state deficient in knowlege. If you call a remark ignorant or stupid or something like that, it's hard to see what sense it can make other than `reflecting ignorance or stupidity or...' on the part of the person who made the remark, at least at the moment they made it. It's just best to avoid that kind of dismissive comment---people will focus on it, rather than on the point you're trying to make. Best to avoid even the appearance of disrespect, eh?

I see everyone's reasoning and you probably are all right. I have only been training for a few years so I definitely don't have the understanding and knowledge of MA to the extent that you guys have.
I think your right about the view of freestyle in the 2 countries because we do not train for competition or anything like that, we train for ourselves (I'm strongly opposed to sport and show adaptations of Karate).

You'll find a lot of people on the MT boards in sympathy with that view. There are quite a few MAist here who don't regard sport competition as the be-all and end-all of the MAs, to put it mildly.

The term 'freestyle' in Australia means that it's just a more open style and is not bound by traditional rules and technique. We still have the basics of traditional Goju Ryu in our system but we modify moves and incorperate a few techniques from other styles into our curriculum.
Just to clear it up my Sensei does teach the bunkai behind kata (although we've never used the term 'Bunkai') and he believes in kata quite strongly.
I would like to go to a Patrick McCarthy seminar but I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to find one.

Check to see if he has a website, is a good place to start. All you need is an email address for him. Here's a link that can get you started: http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/seminars.htm

Also check out the link I posted previously: http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/patrick.htm

Another good starting point, from one of the greatest masters of kata analysis, is Iain Abernethy's Bunkai-jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata. Once you've read his stuff, you won't ever again think of kata as valueless for combat.

Brandon Fisher - I understand now that I don't have enough experience with MA and kata and I will not dismiss kata but instead try to further break down and decipher the deeper meaning behind kata, which I obviously have not done yet.

Good idea. If you have any taste at all for problem solving or puzzles, kata analysis will really appeal to you---it requires a combination of logical thinking and real-world experience, and the payoff is that something which seemed pointless or wildly impractical suddenly emerges as a seriously effective (sometimes too effective) catalogue of very severe damaging techniques, nothing at all like its kick-strike-block `packaging'.

twendkata71 - You have given me an invaluable insight into kata and I will take everything you said on board. You are obviousy a very knowledgeable and experienced person and I thank you for sharing that with me. Also thanks for your advice and be sure that I will be using it in the near future.

What you will probably find, once you see how it's done, is that kata analysis is habit-forming. Remember, the guys who developed the modern kata were bodyguards for the King of Okinawa, and they were forbidden to carry weapons. They had only their bodies. You can bet that they knew how to use them to protect their king, and the kata are the disguised records of their discoveries for that purpose.

 

[kachi]

Thanks for your help Exile, i really appreciate it.

 

[twendkata71]

That's ok kachi, I have been called worse. I definetely was talking about many of the freestylist here in the states. Freestyle here usually means a tournament driven school. Creative/musical forms. I do know several freestylist here that are very good as well.
Mr.Mcarthy's home dojo is in Brisbane I believe.

I see everyone's reasoning and you probably are all right. I have only been training for a few years so I definitely don't have the understanding and knowledge of MA to the extent that you guys have.
I think your right about the view of freestyle in the 2 countries because we do not train for competition or anything like that, we train for ourselves (I'm strongly opposed to sport and show adaptations of Karate). The term 'freestyle' in Australia means that it's just a more open style and is not bound by traditional rules and technique. We still have the basics of traditional Goju Ryu in our system but we modify moves and incorperate a few techniques from other styles into our curriculum.
Just to clear it up my Sensei does teach the bunkai behind kata (although we've never used the term 'Bunkai') and he believes in kata quite strongly.
I would like to go to a Patrick McCarthy seminar but I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to find one.

Brandon Fisher - I understand now that I don't have enough experience with MA and kata and I will not dismiss kata but instead try to further break down and decipher the deeper meaning behind kata, which I obviously have not done yet.

Exile - I did not call 'twendkata71' ignorant I said his remark about freetylists not learning kata because it's "too much work" was ignorant. I never mentioned sport in any of my posts either.

twendkata71 - You have given me an invaluable insight into kata and I will take everything you said on board. You are obviousy a very knowledgeable and experienced person and I thank you for sharing that with me. Also thanks for your advice and be sure that I will be using it in the near future.

 

[twendkata71]

This may be a bit off topic,but The thing that I like about the premise of freestyle is that the freestylist keeps an open mind and tries to learn from other styles and forms of martial arts.
And as far as kata not fiting your idea's of practical self defense, try creating your own kata,with techniques that are practical. It is not as easy as it sounds. It takes a lot of work. Peace and good luck in your journey. :asian:

 

[shoshinkan]

Sport or SD based it doesn't matter, but what are the pros and cons of free style (no kata) karate styles?

im sure there are loads of pros and cons, but it simply isn't 'karate' (in the historical sense) if kata is not the core of the training where im form,

I don't mean simply kata performance - that has very little to do with real karate practise, kata 'study' and application is a different animal.

Whilst there are other elements to good karate this is the central core if you like that everything else hangs off.

 

[exile]

Thanks for your help Exile, i really appreciate it.

No problem, Kachi. The great thing about MT is that you have some great resources available that you take advantage of, and the biggest resource is probably the friendliness of the place---people are glad to try to help and there's a huge amount of hard-won experience out there to tap into. This is what I've found with my own questions...

 

[kachi]

This may be a bit off topic,but The thing that I like about the premise of freestyle is that the freestylist keeps an open mind and tries to learn from other styles and forms of martial arts.
And as far as kata not fiting your idea's of practical self defense, try creating your own kata,with techniques that are practical. It is not as easy as it sounds. It takes a lot of work. Peace and good luck in your journey. :asian:

Personally, I don't think I'm ready to be going and making up new kata. Maybe I just have to spend more time on the old kata to pull out some more practical techniques more suited to myself. I could also delve into other Martial Arts to pick out their kata and modify and add with my own.

 

[shoshinkan]

kachi,

what system of karate and what kata do you work?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Kachi,
I am willing to help if I can. What kata do you practice now?

 

[twendkata71]

Yes, any kata questions that I can answer I would be happy to.
The great thing about disecting kata is that you learn something new each time you work on the kata. It really gets interesting when you learn the vital points and meridians of the body. Some of the hidden strikes are very deadly. That is why they were hidden. And when Itosu adapted the kata for school children he took out some of the more lethal strikes.Didn't want school kids seriously injuring other children.

 

[exile]

And when Itosu adapted the kata for school children he took out some of the more lethal strikes.Didn't want school kids seriously injuring other children.

Yes---Kachi, I don't think it can be stated too many times how much Itosu's strategy of disguising the really severe violent uses built into the kata affected the way later generations of MAists would think abot (and misinterpret) them. Itosu wanted very, very much to get the Okinawan school officials to buy into the use of karate in children's physical education. But as Twendkata says, you can't very well be teaching children to do neck twists, throat strikes and finishes kicks to an `opponent's' lowered head. So the moves were disguised as block-punch-kick. And when Itosu was criticized by his fellow masters for doing this, his response in essence was: look, the combat applications are still there for adult karateka, if they just look for them. That's the part that gets left out of many karate/TKD curricula. But it's as true as it ever was: you have to look, and when you do, you find.

 

[JasonASmith]

I am starting to really analyze the hell out of the movements that I have been performing, and I've come across(by accident, I think) some of those truly nasty moves...I guess that's why I enjoy kata; not just for the prescribed pattern of the movements, but also because they are kind of a puzzle...You know that another piece fits, but you just have to find it...

 

[exile]

I guess that's why I enjoy kata; not just for the prescribed pattern of the movements, but also because they are kind of a puzzle...You know that another piece fits, but you just have to find it...

Exactly---it's a kind of logic problem: it's given that there is a solution, it's given that these are facts, now what is the solution that fits the facts. It's not purely logical of course, because there are certain parts of the solution which depend on things that are not inherently necessary: that the carotid sinus is located where it is and is linked to the maintenance of blood pressure in a particular way which makes it a good target for a finishing strike, and so on.

The problem I have with working out the solution in TKD kata (= hyungs/poomsae/tul in Korean, depending in part what organization you train in) is that, as a number of people who've been doing TKD way longer than me have pointed out, the original Okinawan forms were to some extent chopped up and `mixmastered' as TKD evolved out of the Kwan era, so it's a bit harder to read them. Fortunately, the internal units of the forms---the two-to-four move sequences that each show a complete tactical combat episode---are usually left intact. But sometimes not, and then it's very hard to see what's going on. I hate to make things up that might be based on preconceptions unrelated to biomechanical or combat reality. That's why it's important to try this stuff out in the doj. on, um, real life experimental subjects who are not going to be 100% cooperative with your techniques:wink1:

 

[kachi]

Currently I am practicing Seiyunchin/Seienchin(sp?) and we have broken it down step-by-step, but only a little. I've been learning it for a little under a year so I know the full kata. but kata varies slightly throughout different styles and schools of Karate. I saw some clips of seiyunchin on the net (e.g. http://www.spokanekarate.com/kata/index.php,

) and they aren't completely the same as what i'm learning because there's a few huge chunks missing but the basics are all there.

 

[exile]

Currently I am practicing Seiyunchin/Seienchin(sp?) and we have broken it down step-by-step, but only a little. I've been learning it for a little under a year so I know the full kata. but kata varies slightly throughout different styles and schools of Karate. I saw some clips of seiyunchin on the net (e.g. http://www.spokanekarate.com/kata/index.php,

) and they aren't completely the same as what i'm learning because there's a few huge chunks missing but the basics are all there.

Sounds like your instructors have been talking to you a bit about the bunkai---do you have any examples off the top of your head? Sometime even a simple looking two-move sequence has a whole fight's worth of moves concealed in it...

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Seiyunchin is a interesting kata, I began learning a long time ago but never learned the whole thing. Truly one of my favorite kata to see performed though. Personally I thought the second version of Seiyunchin was not very good but the first version was not great but it was good. Always remember different schools have different interperations of each kata even practicing the same kata. Thats one of the things that intrigues me.

 

[Hand Sword]

That actually baffles me. You would think that the same schools would teach the same thing, especially with the whole tradition thing. Originally one teacher, would've taught the same thing to a group of students, that would go on to teach. Why should there be different interpretations? The founder had one way... his. That's where the real answers would be. At least you would think so. Truly Baffling.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

That actually baffles me. You would think that the same schools would teach the same thing, especially with the whole tradition thing. Originally one teacher, would've taught the same thing to a group of students, that would go on to teach. Why should there be different interpretations? The founder had one way... his. That's where the real answers would be. At least you would think so. Truly Baffling.

I agree.. But truly no one does one kata exactly the same even ones that were trained by the founders they vary slightly. However from style to style the kata tends to vary alot. Okinawan systems the kata doesn't vary has much as between okinawan and japanese kata. Interesting thing is they are pretty much all the same kata. Its enough to make your head spin. :idunno:

 

[twendkata71]

Seiyunchin is my favorite kata. I know two versions. There are only slight variations. The one performed on the youtube clip is the WKF Shito ryu version. The other clip from the spokane school is of course Goju ryu. Usually the reason for so many people performing kata differently is they changed it to fit their body type. Or they started to forget the kata and then added their own movements in the kata where they had the blank spaces.