Kataless Karate Pros & Cons

[eyebeams]

Guys they have kataless karate, its called hapkido.

Hapkido's basics do not resemble karate's very much.

 

[Eviscerate]

Hapkido's basics do not resemble karate's very much.

I'd disagree, but ok.

 

[eyebeams]

I'd disagree, but ok.

I suppose if it the TKD+jujutsu half-formulation of Hapkido it would, but the two lines of Hapkido I trained in used totally different methods and techniques for elementary striking.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Dark,
You need to break the kata down more and look into it deeper and more philosophical manner. I do not know how long you have been training or what your background is so its hard to know if you have looked that deep.

 

[Eviscerate]

I suppose if it the TKD+jujutsu half-formulation of Hapkido it would, but the two lines of Hapkido I trained in used totally different methods and techniques for elementary striking.

You said basics, so lets talk basics. All the kicks are the same, except that some chamber, retract or use a wheel effect from system to system differently. All the punches are the same, theres no getting past the universal principles and mechanics involved unless you're trying to train energy such as in WC but lets not get into that. Strikes, same, same reasoning behind them as punches. Those are basics. Locks, twists, throws etc. aside hapkidos basics are very similar to karates, they are simply often prescribed in a different manner, ie. head high kicks vs. low kicks...

 

[eyebeams]

You said basics, so lets talk basics. All the kicks are the same, except that some chamber, retract or use a wheel effect from system to system differently. All the punches are the same, theres no getting past the universal principles and mechanics involved unless you're trying to train energy such as in WC but lets not get into that. Strikes, same, same reasoning behind them as punches. Those are basics. Locks, twists, throws etc. aside hapkidos basics are very similar to karates, they are simply often prescribed in a different manner, ie. head high kicks vs. low kicks...

Hapkido kicks use a relaxed circular motion with no kime. Hapkido punches lean and agle the torso. Karate kicks and punches train with chambering motions and an upright posture. There are exceptions on both sides, but their progressive training is, in my experience, much different.

 

[Eviscerate]

Hapkido kicks use a relaxed circular motion with no kime. Hapkido punches lean and agle the torso. Karate kicks and punches train with chambering motions and an upright posture. There are exceptions on both sides, but their progressive training is, in my experience, much different.

Theres no real exxageration between a front snap kick (karate) and a front thrust kick (hapkido) save that the japanese try to telegraph less by controlling their hip displacement during its excecution (in kata). Side kick is basically the same as well, except that yhe japanese will try to position more before the kick than position with the kick, still its the same technique save for the blade/heel thing. A reverse punch is a reverse punch unless you dont know how to do it, theres only one proper way to generate its full power and it has more to do with hip rotation and loading and springing with the quads than retraction of the arm.
I think whats happening is you and i are looking at it from different angles of observation. However, the mechanics in the techniques hold true for everyone with two arms and two legs, at least as far as the kicking, punching and striking goes.

 

[Dark]

Dark,
You need to break the kata down more and look into it deeper and more philosophical manner. I do not know how long you have been training or what your background is so its hard to know if you have looked that deep.

I hold a shodan in Shotokan and a Nidan in Goju-Ryu karate. I also have an unoffical Sandan in Shotokan, its unoffical because my Sensei had a falling out with the JKA and they disowned each other...

I've been taught philosophy in the dojo, but never seen it expressed in kata. So if you could please explain it to me I'd be happy to listen.

Now all kata, forms in Karate and Kung-fu can be traced to the Da Mo series which was an exercise Bodhiharma taught the Chinese monks on his journey from India. Later the modifications were used by martial artist to strengthen the muscles used for the execution of fighting techniques, each exerise or combination of exercises represented a particular "style or system." This I know, but I have never heard of philosophy being taught. Tactics, strategies and principles yes but not philosophy.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Dark,
Thanks for giving me some background on you. Sorry to hear about the falling out with the JKA. This kind of thing happens to much.

I think anyway that viewing the philosophy in kata you have to look deep and study it. Think hard about the bunkai learn it so well that you can do it in your sleep. Ponder the application, its purpose and how it fits to your training regimen. I feel this is where the philosophical aspect of kata is. Not in the movement so much but your interpertation and and application. Plus the way you practice and perform kata.

I hope that helps a little.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Dark,
Thanks for giving me some background on you. Sorry to hear about the falling out with the JKA. This kind of thing happens to much.

I think anyway that viewing the philosophy in kata you have to look deep and study it. Think hard about the bunkai learn it so well that you can do it in your sleep. Ponder the application, its purpose and how it fits to your training regimen. I feel this is where the philosophical aspect of kata is. Not in the movement so much but your interpertation and and application. Plus the way you practice and perform kata.

I hope that helps a little.

You seem knowlegeble in Kata, could you tell us about your background. I see that your involved with a lot of orgaizations and awards.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

You seem knowlegeble in Kata, could you tell us about your background. I see that your involved with a lot of orgaizations and awards.

Thank you for your compliments. I try to convey good information the best I can. However sometimes its not very clear by typing it.

I will try to at least answer your question about my background. I hate talking about myself though.

This year is my 22nd year in martial arts and I am ranked as a godan in Seijitsu Shin Do of which I founded based on my Ju Jitsu and karate background. I have truly been a student of the martial arts researching and studing the the history, philosophy, and applications of both Okinawan and Japanese karate and ju jitsu systems for the past 15 years intensively.

My original system was Tai Shin Doh but do to some things I am unaware of my instructor gave me and my family the boot in February. Long story to say the least. However I have also been a student of Okinawan Shorin Ryu-Shorinkan while I was in Indiana and that is where I picked up my kata for the most part.

I have been very privledged to recieve the awards I have but, really they are just that awards. To me the best part of the martial arts is training and teaching quality martial arts both spiritual and physical but very thought provoking karate. Its like I tell my students I may be Sensei to them but I am first and foremost a student for life.

As far as the assocications I do belong to a few but only support one that I am currently a member of. I do not have ties to past organizations due partly to my instructor and I parting ways and other because of poor practices on the associations part. I mainly support PKC (Professional Karate Commission) and if I am lucky enough to have my application accepted by the United States Karate Alliance I will support them.

Hope that helps answer your question.

 

[Dark]

I think anyway that viewing the philosophy in kata you have to look deep and study it. Think hard about the bunkai learn it so well that you can do it in your sleep. Ponder the application, its purpose and how it fits to your training regimen. I feel this is where the philosophical aspect of kata is. Not in the movement so much but your interpertation and and application. Plus the way you practice and perform kata.

It may be semantics but what does my personal "philosophy" of action have to do with transmitting an ethical philosophy? I'm trying to grasp this concept, can you give me an example to get me started in the right direction?

Thanks, in adavance...

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I must have missed something where did ethical philosophy come into play? I re-read the thread you never mentioned ethical anything. Please clarify for me.

Thanks!!

 

[Dark]

I must have missed something where did ethical philosophy come into play? I re-read the thread you never mentioned ethical anything. Please clarify for me.

Thanks!!

The Dojo Kun of most Okinawan and Japanese MA where influenced by the ethical philosophy of their religions. The Okinawans had a heavier "zen" concept from Chinese influence, and the Japanese art where heavily influenced by Bushido, Taoist philosophy, Buddist Philosophy and Shinto philosophy. Which is what I was refering to with the philosophy word in general, when you said philosphy I was thinking of that. What over philosophy are you speaking of?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Ok then we just were on 2 different pages. I have seen many people have very philosophical approaches to kata and its applications in some ways I do also.

You are very correct in the zen influence in Okinawan karate. Nagamine Sensei used zen extensively in his training and teaching methods by what my reasearch as said but I am not exactly sure how it was applied. I would need to refer back to his book again.

 

[Dark]

The freestyle karate dojo is was checking out was pretty cool, they teach the core techniques and have dropped kata, in favor of a more scientific view point, they have a pretty nice set up, they also teach the philosophy aspect as well. I was actually surprised they went back to the old, trap-lock-break methods from a block as well.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I teach a lot of the trapping and breaking aspects of kata some kuzushi but mainly bunkai and oyo except the higher levels. I also teach a lot of self defense waza and not strictly preset because I believe in being fluid and being able to adapt to the situation and when the situation changes.

 

[Silly Limey]

The pro to not having kata in karate is that it helps a karateka focus on more practical aspects, such as what to do in a real-life situation and whatnot. The con is that kata greatly help with techniques, and taking kata out may make room for sloppy strikes. If you practice a kata correctly, with each technique being right, it will help you do that technique correctly and more powerfully when you need it. Personally, I think kata are incredibly important to karate.

 

[twendkata71]

karate without kata is not karate. It may still be a fighting art, but not karate. Then again people call a lot of systems karate when it is not really karate. Karate without kata is better called freestyle kickboxing. Which there is nothing wrong with, but I just have problem with people calling something karate when it really isn't karate.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I just have problem with people calling something karate when it really isn't karate.

So do I