Kataless Karate Pros & Cons

[exile]

Silly Limey frames the issue nicely in his post:

The pro to not having kata in karate is that it helps a karateka focus on more practical aspects, such as what to do in a real-life situation and whatnot. The con is that kata greatly help with techniques, and taking kata out may make room for sloppy strikes. If you practice a kata correctly, with each technique being right, it will help you do that technique correctly and more powerfully when you need it. Personally, I think kata are incredibly important to karate.

I agree with his last statement, but I have one caveat: it's a mistake to think that, as the first sentence here implies, kata are an obstacle to practical application in realistic combat situations. That's what kata are all about, and what Brandon in his previous post, Twendkata in several of his posts and many other MT people have written about. The problem with practical application isn't the kata, it's that people are often taught to perform kata but not to study them in a way that lets you extract the self-defense methods the kata were designed to make available to you. As has been stated a zillion times before on various MT fora, for the kata to be useful, you have to train in their use; if you do it right---and there's now a huge pool of resources to help you, including some excellent books and videos devoted to the decoding of kata into street-useful bunkai---every kata/hyung/form can be decoded to reveal hard (and often grotesquely brutal) self-defense methods.

The techniques behind the kata work beautifully---just ask (in your mind, anyway) anyone who ever tried to mix it up with Matsumoto or Itosu or any of those guys, the masters who codified the kata we've all learned.

 

[still learning]

Hello, There is a place for Kata's in the martial arts as a training tool

Keep in mind all the other street fighters and boxes, thai boxes,kick boxing ,mix martial arts,do not do Kata's.

Yet all are successful! Why? because actully sponstanous fighting works better.

If Kata's were successful all sports would have Kata's!

Kata's were develop because a few students couldn't understand there training for. Steps were made to offer students movement and proper stance and punching/kicking skills plus others. Predetermine steps.

For Actully fighting (anything goes)....Kata's do not work well here...some of the best Kata's competation guys..usually do not well in sparring!

There is a place for Kata's as training tool...not the ALL answer for martial art training.

To be a good fighter...one needs to sparr alot....just my thoughts here...Aloha

 

[twendkata71]

I personally never said that kata were or should be the total focus of your training. I am not talking about the sport applications here. The kata were not developed for sport( at least the original kata), They were developed to be sort of a text book for karateka, a means of praticing their techniques without a partner. Also it is a form of mental training. A fact that most freestylist do not get. Mainly because they do not have the patience to learn and break them down. Too much work for them. I said that karate without kata is not karate. Kihon,kata and jiyu kumite,yaksoku kumite. That is the foundation of karate. And the cultivation of your own creative efforts to discover the limitless techniques found within the kata.
If you understand kata, then you understand its importance. When I starting training I didn't get the kata thing either. I just wanted to spar. Once I learned more about kata and what they could offer , then I found an encyclopedia(of sorts) of techniques.

 

[exile]

I personally never said that kata were or should be the total focus of your training. I am not talking about the sport applications here. The kata were not developed for sport( at least the original kata), They were developed to be sort of a text book for karateka, a means of praticing their techniques without a partner. Also it is a form of mental training. A fact that most freestylist do not get. Mainly because they do not have the patience to learn and break them down. Too much work for them. I said that karate without kata is not karate. Kihon,kata and jiyu kumite,yaksoku kumite. That is the foundation of karate. And the cultivation of your own creative efforts to discover the limitless techniques found within the kata.
If you understand kata, then you understand its importance. When I starting training I didn't get the kata thing either. I just wanted to spar. Once I learned more about kata and what they could offer , then I found an encyclopedia(of sorts) of techniques.

Well said, Twendkata!

 

[Brandon Fisher]

A textbook is a great example on describing kata. I say this to my students all the time.

Still Learning,
I don't want to start a your idea is better then mine thing but you can't look at modern kata / kumite competition and base your opinions solely on that aspect. Its important to see the history of kata and why it was created. It was not created for a few students who did not understand their training. Kata was originally used to disguise their training from the samurai who had taken over Okinawa and banned all forms of fighting and weapons. If you look at Okinawan dances you may see aspects in the dances similar to that in kata.

Now I agree that to be a good fighter one must fight alot everything practiced solo must be put into application, even basic line drill, bag drills and other types of practice. But I am pretty good in the kata area and still am able to fight well also. Practice, application, practice, application and then practice the application. This so that it all becomes second nature and you can respond out of reaction.

 

[twendkata71]

Yes, I agree that you have to spend a lot of time sparring to develop good fighting skills. Timing,learning to manipulate the opponent, to read their intentions. Kata develops the muscle memory in the techniques. Sparring develops the reflexes and your ability to deal with an actual opponent attacking. You also learn where your weaknesses are. When you make a mistake or lose focus in sparring you feel where you left an opening or misjudged the distance.
Also don't forget your basics. Without strong basics your techniques will be ineffective.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Without strong basics your techniques will be ineffective.

Without a doubt!!

 

[twendkata71]

The thing that I see a lot at competitions is students and black belts that have weak basics. You see it in their kata,in their technique and their fighting. Then when others see that they make a judgement on the style that that student/or black belt is demonstrating.
This is how the people not in the martial arts get a bad impression of the martial arts (karate,Taekwondo,etc.).
I also think that is where people get their impression that kata is not useful. If they see someone with weak technique in their kata,which means weak basics or in many cases the person has not practiced the kata thoroughly enough. Then kata looks to be not worth the time. Also much of the meanings of the movements in kata are hidden so the average observer sees the movements as unuseful. Just my observation.

 

[exile]

Also much of the meanings of the movements in kata are hidden so the average observer sees the movements as unuseful. Just my observation.

Exactly, and this was the point that Brandon was making too. Some of the motivation for that concealment was just as he said---the reluctance of the Okinawans to give away anything to their Satsuma overlords (although it's probably the case that the samurai, with their katanas, could probably not have cared less about the Okinawan's empty-hand techniques). But remember also that Itosu explicitly disguised the system by relabelling locks, throws, sweeps and chokes, throat strikes and all the rest as simple punch-block-kick sequences as part of his campaign to get the Okinawan public schools to incorporated karate into their regular physical training curriculum. You obviously are not going to teach a child a sequence of moves originally intended to immobilize an attacker's arm and use that control to bring his head into position where you can crush his windpipe, and actually tell that child the true purpose of the sequence---it had to be sanitized as block-block-punch or whatever, and that's what Itosu did and said he did. And he was criticized for it at the time.

The point is, it's no secret that the katas are not what they are described as being in the usual kata sequence description; same for the TDK hyungs. There's a whole program in karate/TKD devoted to recovering the very nasty real-time effective uses of kata sequences for combat use. Sounds to me like Brandon, Twendkata and quite a few other people on MT devote serious teaching time to these apps in their curricula, and I think that any dojo/dojang that wants to offer a high-quality, complete program in their art has to do the same.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have seen the same thing as Twen. The way I see it is many times the acrobatics and speed are used to cover up the lack of strong basics.

 

[kachi]

...Also it is a form of mental training. A fact that most freestylist do not get. Mainly because they do not have the patience to learn and break them down. Too much work for them...

That is an extremely ignorant remark. Most freestylists do not train with kata because it's not believed to have much practical value for real life situations. Not because it's too much work or because they don't have patience, that's just petty slander.
I personally do train with kata, not because I want to but mainly because it's part of our curriculum. There is far to much useless and time consuming rubbish in kata and I believe that if you are taught the correct technique to start with and you practise it over and over again then there is no need for kata. As for the spiritual aspect of kata, I just down right don't believe in it so I won't comment on that.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but sorry thats about as uneducated of a comment as you can get. True there are parts that are not very useful but again there are many more very useful parts in kata. But I guess this is a example of whats happening in the world today, so many people want to try and reinvent the wheel. Simple fact is someone says something is new, don't count on it someone probably thought of it and practiced centuries ago. They say history repeats itself and thats true. So learn from the past and keep improving on what the founders created, don't throw it away and try to start from scratch that would just be stupid.

I noticed in your profile that you are a brown belt. I don't know how long you have been training but my guess is only a few years. Twendkata and both have been around more than 20 years as have many of the participants on this forum. Experience brings education normally maybe you should look deeper into kata. Obviously your sensei has a purpose for it if he is teaching it. Maybe ask him about it also. You might learn more about it.

 

[donald]

I guess pros would be not having to learn a full "traditional" kata. Although I am for kata training, and would be interested to see the ratios of for, and against.

 

[twendkata71]

Not to sound condisending, but you are only a brown belt and you have not had enough training to fully see the value of kata. You probably learn kata with out learning the bunkai(hidden meanings of the movement.)
Sorry of offend. One more thing. If you are practicing a technique solo, that is kata of sorts, if you are shadow boxing, kata, if you are practicing a technique with a partner that is a two man kata.
My point is that kata(literally means exercise). kata are a series of movements practiced solo. Also your view of freestyle karate there in Australia and the one here in the US is probably different. Most freestylist here are more interested in XMA acrobatic tournament martial arts. And in many cases here Freestylist usually means that they broke ties from a style far before they were qualified to start their own style. I have been practicing the martial arts(karate,jujitsu,kobudo,kempo,) for 25 years I think I might have somewhat of an educated opinion.

That is an extremely ignorant remark. Most freestylists do not train with kata because it's not believed to have much practical value for real life situations. Not because it's too much work or because they don't have patience, that's just petty slander.
I personally do train with kata, not because I want to but mainly because it's part of our curriculum. There is far to much useless and time consuming rubbish in kata and I believe that if you are taught the correct technique to start with and you practise it over and over again then there is no need for kata. As for the spiritual aspect of kata, I just down right don't believe in it so I won't comment on that.

 

[twendkata71]

I see where your system is zendo ryu if it is the same zendo ryu that I am thinking of then I knew a guy in HS that practiced that system and he was very good.
When I was coming up through the ranks before black belt, I didn't understand the value of kata either. I thought they were just something I had to learn for belt rank and competition. Many of the movements didn't make sense. Then after shodan I started learning the bunkai and oyo of the kata and then it made sense. You also have to use your own creative efforts to adjust the movements to your self defense needs. I don't mean change the kata,just change the bunkai and adapt the movements. The kata should develop your base and muscle memory. The example of the perfect form of the technique. Which in general does not happen when you are suddenly attacked. But, a well trained individual has more of a chance that someone who has had little or no training.

 

[exile]

There is far to much useless and time consuming rubbish in kata

Kachi---the reason you're taking all these hits on your post is not because people just don't like what you're saying (as in, e.g., `vanilla is good'/`no, vanilla is awful' type of thing) but because there is a huge amount of serious work out there, by very good, very formidable fighters, on just this issue of the use of kata, that you apparently haven't come in contact with. There's a whole MT thread on why people dislike kata, with a lot of posts that point to the reasons why your comment about `useless and time consuming rubbish' is just factually wrong. If you're doing kata without realizing how those moves are really meant to be applied in combat, then you're overlooking some of the best thinking about MAs that's ever been done.

It's true that for sport karate and Olympic-style TDK, the katas aren't going to be all that helpful (directly, anyway)---not because they're ineffective, but because they're too effective; they were created to show you how to damage an attacker bent on hurting you---damage him so badly that he basically can't get up again without help, let alone continue fighting. But to understand them, you have to learn how to read them---to understand that the moves described as punches and blocks aren't necessarily punches and are almost certainly not blocks, and that the kata are trying to show you throws, sweeps, locks and grappling setups for nasty finishing strikes in a variety of fighting situations and ranges. The katas teach you stuff that would get you chucked out of any tournament you applied it in. But that doesn't make them `rubbish'---it just makes tournament rules kind of unrelated to real fights. You need to find out about this way of decoding the katas before you make the kinds of wholesale dismissive statements you've made. Calling other people `ignorant' on the basis of the holes in your own knowledge isn't the way to make your point---especially people who have been in this game a long, long time and know it really well.

 

[twendkata71]

kachi, since you actually live in Australia, if you get the chance sometime go to a Patrick Mcarthy seminar. It will open your eyes on kata. You are lucky. He lives there in Australia. He has done more research on kata that most.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

kachi, since you actually live in Australia, if you get the chance sometime go to a Patrick Mcarthy seminar. It will open your eyes on kata. You are lucky. He lives there in Australia. He has done more research on kata that most.

Good suggestion:asian:

 

[exile]

kachi, since you actually live in Australia, if you get the chance sometime go to a Patrick Mcarthy seminar. It will open your eyes on kata. You are lucky. He lives there in Australia. He has done more research on kata that most.

Twendkata, has Patrick McCarthy written anything up, or does he have dvd/vids or anything like that?

 

[exile]

Partially answered my own question---here is a really good URL to see what P. McC. is up to: http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/patrick.htm

He looks like the real deal---his take on kata interpretation ties in with that of a lot of the most forward-looking research in this area. I can see I'm going to be buying more books soon.