kata?

[Kenpoguy123]

For the same reasons boxers shaddow box, fitness, reflexes and basics

 

[Hanzou]

"The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior. ” – Choki Motobu

Sounds like a convenient cop-out.

 

[Blindside]

Sounds like a convenient cop-out.

I actually don't think it is a cop out, it is accepting a limitation on what you are teaching. It is the combatives approach to the problem, teach simple gross motor motions that work against common untrained attacks. That is a totally legit approach. What it doesn't explain is how the curriculum managed to so completely F up the transmission of something that is relatively simple. Learning basic techniques against an untrained attacker is not a lifetime of study, training to take on skilled fighters is.

 

[Flying Crane]

Fortunately if you don't like kata, there's plenty of martial arts out there that don't practice it.

Hanzou and I have something to agree on.

 

[Flying Crane]

Kata isn't designed for fighting; it's designed for self defence. So asking if there is any way for kata to help you in a fight, is like asking if there is anyway table tennis lessons can help you learn to fly a plane. The answer is of course, no, because that isn't what it is teaching you.

"The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior. ” – Choki Motobu

This is case of Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy, where Deep Thought can't work out the answer to life the universe and everything because he doesn’t understand the question. First you need to understand the difference between fighting and self defence (the free podcast at the bottom of this link will help with that)

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

then you need to understand how kata is designed to be applied (Which is easier said than doe and unfortunately the vast majority of Karate Instructors don’t understand kata or how to correctly apply it). Only then will you be able to ask the right question, and only then will you be able to get the right answers.

Interesting quote, if Motobu said that. From the standpoint of Chinese systems, some of which heavily influenced the Okinawan methods, I would disagree with it. Forms are one tool in the tool box, one of many, that can help you develop your fighting and self defense capabilities on all levels. Different systems may place a different emphasis on them, different forms may be constructed with different specific goals in mind, so there is no single, one-size-fits-all answer to this. But I know the place that the forms in my system hold in the training methodology, and it makes sense, and they do contribute to the development of those skills. I would expect the same to be true with other systems.

Sometimes I just gotta shrug, about these debates.

 

[AlexGoode]

whats the point of learning katas? like what is it going to teach and is there any way itll help us in a way to fight?
0_0

Kata could be any set sequence of movements, so I'm not surprised at the variation of answers, and all could be right. I guess it's the intention of the movements within the Kata. One thing I could add is katas that use really low stances and full extension on the blocks and strikes can build alot of core things like feeling more rooted in your footwork (even while in a higher stance) and developing speed, snap, understanding the mechanics, etc that could be used in a shorter, tighter, space, more akin to an actual situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kata isn't designed for fighting; it's designed for self defence. So asking if there is any way for kata to help you in a fight, is like asking if there is anyway table tennis lessons can help you learn to fly a plane. The answer is of course, no, because that isn't what it is teaching you.

"The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior. ” – Choki Motobu

This is case of Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy, where Deep Thought can't work out the answer to life the universe and everything because he doesn’t understand the question. First you need to understand the difference between fighting and self defence (the free podcast at the bottom of this link will help with that)

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

then you need to understand how kata is designed to be applied (Which is easier said than doe and unfortunately the vast majority of Karate Instructors don’t understand kata or how to correctly apply it). Only then will you be able to ask the right question, and only then will you be able to get the right answers.

[/QUOTE]
You continue to insist that only your definition of "fight" can be the accurate one. In spite of the fact that many others here use the word to refer to any physical altercation (which would include self-defense situations where non-physical options didn't suffice). You know this, yet you continue to obstinately create a false dichotomy between the two words. Why not simply choose to understand how people are using the word, rather than shoving your chosen definition at people?

 

[senseiblackbelt]

You call yourself "sensei black belt," yet you don't understand why kata is done?

im **** with usernames. couldnt think of anything

 

[lyn]

I was taught that kata is taught to instill a form of discipline, to let you visualize attacks and your responses, to teach position and timing. It can also be thought of as a moving meditation. When you get into it, you don't think about it, you just do, and you flow with the movements. This allows the mind to relax.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

You cannot learn a new language without first learning the alphabet and the basic words, you practice these basic words over and over again until you can say them without thinking. Similarly, you cannot learn a Martial Art without first learning the basic moves and combinations. This is why we have forms (or kata), to give you an understanding of how the basic techniques fit together and give you a way of practicing those techniques and basic combinations until you can do them without thinking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You cannot learn a new language without first learning the alphabet and the basic words, you practice these basic words over and over again until you can say them without thinking. Similarly, you cannot learn a Martial Art without first learning the basic moves and combinations. This is why we have forms (or kata), to give you an understanding of how the basic techniques fit together and give you a way of practicing those techniques and basic combinations until you can do them without thinking.

That is one method for learning a new language (and, as you noted, a martial art). Immersion is the other method - and the way we learn our native languages. Martial arts can be learned without kata (or other repetitive exercises designed for learning a movement), though it's pretty obvious that some sort of repetitive practice of a single movement or series of movements is part of nearly all physical training for a reason.

Just making a point that those who don't like kata, and those who train without it, are not doing anything wrong, though I find myself mostly in the kata camp on this one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was taught that kata is taught to instill a form of discipline, to let you visualize attacks and your responses, to teach position and timing. It can also be thought of as a moving meditation. When you get into it, you don't think about it, you just do, and you flow with the movements. This allows the mind to relax.

I wish all students were taught to use kata while visualizing an attack. I know that some are taught the kata (at least initially) as rote movement, without understanding the attacks they are supposed to work against. I think this is visible in some kata demonstrations.

 

[lklawson]

I wish all students were taught to use kata while visualizing an attack.

That would require the instructor to agree with your conception of the role & purpose of kata. It should be obvious by now, in this thread alone, that broad agreement, never mind universal agreement, on the role & purpose of kata is, um..., "remarkably unlikely." I hate to say "never," but... well... never.

It would also require the instructor to agree with you on what exactly the purpose of each movement is. Good luck with that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Midnight-shadow]

That would require the instructor to agree with your conception of the role & purpose of kata. It should be obvious by now, in this thread alone, that broad agreement, never mind universal agreement, on the role & purpose of kata is, um..., "remarkably unlikely." I hate to say "never," but... well... never.

It would also require the instructor to agree with you on what exactly the purpose of each movement is. Good luck with that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I would like to think any self respecting instructor would explain the principles behind each technique when they teach it, otherwise what is the point in learning the technique? The katas are no different in this regard. I don't know about you but when I'm practicing a technique, I like to know what I'm supposed to be striking or defending against.

 

[lklawson]

I would like to think any self respecting instructor would explain the principles behind each technique when they teach it, otherwise what is the point in learning the technique? The katas are no different in this regard. I don't know about you but when I'm practicing a technique, I like to know what I'm supposed to be striking or defending against.

OK. Here's an example. What's the "X Block" for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

OK. Here's an example. What's the "X Block" for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Oh, I know this one!! BLOCKING EXes!!

 

[Touch Of Death]

OK. Here's an example. What's the "X Block" for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

If that is an app for a phone, I want it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

OK. Here's an example. What's the "X Block" for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not a real thing, at the higher levels. it is more of a block block. One hand always leads.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

OK. Here's an example. What's the "X Block" for?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Depends what you mean by a "X block". They aren't in the system I practice so I don't know. Not that it has much bearing on this discussion. My point is that every move you do should have a purpose, and you should be aware of that purpose when performing your katas. In addition to this, your instructor should tell you what each technique can be used for, so that you can apply it in a fight more effectively. That is how I see it anyway.

 

[Th0mas]

Not all forms are equal. Some forms have better design than the other. The following combos exist in the form.

1. A left side kick followed by a right back spin fist to the head. This combo is used when your opponent uses his left arm to block your left side kick to your right, you then borrow his force, spin to your right, and throw right back fist on his head.
2. A left side kick followed by a right palm chop to the neck. This combo is used when your opponent uses his right arm to block your left side kick to your left, you then borrow his force, spin to your left, and throw right palm strike on his neck.

IMO, if your opponent has the ability to block your fast powerful skip in side kick, he is not a beginner and can be qualified as "professional fighter".

I am not sure to which form you refer, but your interpretation of the applications are not ones I would associate with self protection. Neither of your examples are likely scenarios in a self defence situation.

The whole point of Motobu's is that the kata are designed to teach applications and strategies for dealing with civilian violence not duelling or martial competition. Let's be clear just because the violence is not being done by a professional doesn't make it any less dangerious... In fact I would argue it is more so! a physical assault outside the "safe" environment of a dojo or ring brings a whole range of different risks and dangers, not least because it is something you will not be used to.