Kata & Its Applications

[MJS]

During some downtime at work today, I was surfing another forum, and the discussion of kata came up, although the main thrust of the thread was talking about grappling. People were asking whether or not the grappling applications that could be found in kata, would suffice against someone trying to grapple you, or if you'd be better suited training in a grappling art, ie: Judo, BJJ, etc.

So, those that do kata in your art, do you feel that its enough or do you look towards a grappling based art? If you feel that you dont need to look any further than your main art, have you had success in the real world, with the grappling aspects?

 

[Sensei Payne]

Kata in Ryukyu Kempo, really teaches you more about proper hand placement, posture and stance more than anything.

So yes it does help...but IMO its nothing without actually starting to APPLY the Bunkai(breakdown) of the techniques.

Do ALL Kata...you will have poor execution..Do all Execution, you'll develop bad habits.

 

[Flying Crane]

A question that I think may affect the discussion is: how does one get the experience necessary to know if one is having success in the "real world"?

Personally, I do not compete, I have no interest in it, so that's out.

Second, I do not go looking for fights, I do not hang out in places where fights are likely, and I seem to be lucky enough that the "bad" folks don't seem to mess with me. So I've gotten thru my forty years on this planet without having to bust heads along the way.

So I wonder how I would get the experience to even know if it's effective? In the meantime I guess it's going on a bit of faith. The methods make sense to me. But no, I've never had a proper go against a "grappler".

 

[punisher73]

It's important to remember what "grappling" is being defined as in relation to okinawan kata. Yes, the katas contained "standing" grappling techniques and throws. The okinawans had groundfighting, which was striking an opponent who was already down or when you were down and had to get back up. They did not have ground grappling such as BJJ or the groundwork of Judo as we think of grappling now.

I have seen heard some CRAZY bunkai attached to katas to try and convince people that ground grappling has always been in there. I have seen/heard people say the the crossover step from Naihanchi or the one legged crane stance from Chinto is REALLY just a triangle choke in disguise that is done from the ground.

Can you take a principle and apply it standing or on the ground. Yes, but I don't feel that was the original intent or that the moves were secretly hidden like that.

 

[Nomad]

I'd go with a solid "it depends".

Obviously, your grappling will improve dramatically if you study a grappling art. This should be a no-brainer, since it's a clear example of specialization.

IMO, the grappling found in kata is designed to introduce you to some of the relevant techniques and principles. I also believe strongly that karate wasn't developed to be used primarily against other trained fighters (and certainly not against specialists trained in other areas of fighting), but instead was designed to protect and defend primarily against untrained assailants. In this instance, the grappling contained in the kata, if practiced occasionally, will often be "enough".

I was talking about this the other day in class, and noted that the techniques would probably work pretty well against someone who watched UFC, but against a trained wrestler would mean a quick trip to the ground since their technique and their timing will likely be better than yours (without a lot more training against takedowns)

 

[Thesemindz]

It depends on the kata. My first kata contains no punches and no kicks and no grapples. That kata would probably not be very useful for learning grappling. My fifth and sixth kata are all stand up grappling defenses, many of which translate directly to ground fighting. If your kata included ground and standing grappling techniques, it might be very useful in training your ground fighting.

Kata works. But it's supposed to be part of a broader training regimen. One that includes pattern training, and live training, and drills, and exercise, and sparring, and air karate, and bag work, and bookwork. And you have to practice it, study it, understand it, and apply it against a resisting opponent. Kata is just a long string of basics in the air. It's a repository for important technical information. Any boxing instructor who's ever taught a lead hand jab has taught kata, his is just shorter than mine. On one level, kata is just prescripted shadowboxing.

If you have a kata that practices grappling techniques, and you practice it, of course you will improve. If you're just dancing around waving your arms in the air, it probably won't help much, but if you study it with utmost seriousness, it's a valuable piece of the puzzle.

What, besides practicing his techniques in the air, is a practitioner supposed to do to improve his technical skill in the absence of a human body or body analogue to work on?


-Rob

 

[dancingalone]

So, those that do kata in your art, do you feel that its enough or do you look towards a grappling based art? If you feel that you dont need to look any further than your main art, have you had success in the real world, with the grappling aspects?

No, it's not if we're talking about sparring with a grappling specialist. When I made some friends who do judo and BJJ, I found myself needing to learn their basics in order to play within their domain.

 

[Makalakumu]

In the old days, Okinawans had their own grappling system called Tegumi. When they wanted to have a match with each other, they would basically bust this out. Tegumi had all of the grappling basics, submissions and strikes. The point was to make the other guy submit or rendered unconscious. Many of the past masters talked fondly of Tegumi matches in their childhood.

The distinction between that and Te is that the focus was on self defense. The Okinawans believed that it was not wise to go to the ground in a self defense situation because it left you vulnerable to attack by others. Also, Okinawans created kata that wouldn't just make your opponent submit, they would kill him...or they would simply allow you to get away from the situation alive.

So, Tegumi is essentially gone. I can find no where to train it, even in Hawaii. The masters here say you pretty much need to have a base in grappling because that was the expected norm in Okinawa. You have to cross train to learn that. Karate kata contain plenty of standing grappling and kneeling techniques. Some of them can be done laying down. It's enough to show the difference between tegumi and te and that's all that was needed.

 

[Kemposhot]

For grappling I would have to say it depends on a lot. It's better than nothing, and teaches alright positions and stances, however, without actually practicing grappling the very few kata techniques would not be enough.

 

[Makalakumu]

For grappling I would have to say it depends on a lot. It's better than nothing, and teaches alright positions and stances, however, without actually practicing grappling the very few kata techniques would not be enough.

Agreed. Karateka of old, at the time the kata were created, were essentially expected to have a background in Tegumi. Since our society is different, a dojo should make an effort to teach grappling basics, in order to better understand the grappling in kata.

 

[chinto]

During some downtime at work today, I was surfing another forum, and the discussion of kata came up, although the main thrust of the thread was talking about grappling. People were asking whether or not the grappling applications that could be found in kata, would suffice against someone trying to grapple you, or if you'd be better suited training in a grappling art, ie: Judo, BJJ, etc.

So, those that do kata in your art, do you feel that its enough or do you look towards a grappling based art? If you feel that you dont need to look any further than your main art, have you had success in the real world, with the grappling aspects?

OK, what are we talking about here? a sport match kind of sparring? or a self defense situation??
is the kata in Okinawan karate teaching you to say take part in a rondori with a judika, or roll with a BJJ type? no not really.

Does it have grappling in it that is mainly from standing and intended to put the other man down so you can kill him easily? YES!

In a self defense situation you DO NOT want to go to the ground with them. They DO NOT come in SINGLES normally. Usually they come in pairs or more.

so the Okinawans developed Karate to allow them to survive any one from an untrained attacker to even a samurai when push came to shove. ( yes folks there were karateka who survived a samurai attacking them on Okinawa by using karate. )

so we have two different types of grappling involved here. The older samurai jujitsu styles had many techniques that have a lot in common with karate as far as putting the attacker on the ground and finishing with him standing and the enemy on the ground. there is a reason for that, namely survival when there may be other attackers present.

so for self defense, yes karate has the grappling in kata for survival... for a sport grappling match against a specialized grappling practitioner, provably not. The responses in kata to grappling are not very sport friendly.