Its All There

[Xue Sheng]

I was going to initially reply to your first post, but opted for this one, as it went more in depth. Speaking for myself only, I guess I'm split down the middle. I think that many times when someone says that "X" isn't in their art, its because they're looking at it from a different point of view. I'd say that there was no grappling in Kenpo, yet we have defenses for chokes, grabs and takedowns. Now looking at it face value, you won't see a set defense to escape the mount or any other grappling positions, yet after playing with some ideas and techs., I did find some applications. But it took work on my end.

Of course, you will have those that say that if you want to fight a grappler, you need to know how to grapple..plain and simple, if the traditional grappling methods were so good, how come they're not used in the ring. The list goes on and on and on.

I cross train for a few reasons, one being that I enjoy it and the other because I wanted to go more in depth in certain areas. A person I know used to use the term 'cross referencing' whenever we'd talk about the arts. I believe the point was not so much as throwing yourself into a totally new art, but instead to work with folks from other arts, and learn and understand how they operate. I don't think that we should have to throw away a move because someone else says it won't work or because they can't get it to work, but instead, look at the move and see how it can apply to modern times. In other words, take those takedown defenses from Kenpo, work them against a grappler, and tweak as needed.

I hope all that rant made sense.

Mike

It makes perfect sense and I agree. And I do not see anything wrong with cross training (in most cases) I just do not feel it is required if you want to be a complete martial artist.

As I said I train Taiji and I train Sanda but I do it because first the opportunities presented themselves and later I find I really enjoy both. And I still mess around with Xingyiquan and Wing Chun from time to time but that is mainly because I am a CMA addict and I just can’t help myself :uhyeah:. But I will admit sometimes the views of confrontation these styles have do sometimes conflict and sometimes compliment.

But I have also trained other arts (JMA, CMA and KMA) but I did it because I really enjoyed training them or becuae they were there and I would still be training them if the schools were available and we had a 72.5 hour day, but since we don't I had to limit my addiction :ticked:.

 

[MJS]

Even if there was an art that covered everything, it would take decades to find all of the hidden applications, secret techniques and all the rest of whatever the art claims to have. By cross training in arts that specialize in the percieved weaknesses of your own, you make yourself a more well rounded and capable martial artist a little sooner, and in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with expedience as long as it isn't done at the cost of effectiveness and efficiency.

And this is a reason I like to do it. I'll never leave Kenpo. But there is so much out there, that I hate the thought of limiting my way of doing things to just Kenpo. If anything, the other arts I train in, Arnis and BJJ, have all blended together so well, they all work hand in hand.

I guess another way of looking at it is like this: There are doctors that are general medicine. I can go to my doc with a knee injury and sure, he can suggest a few things, but one thing he's going to suggest is to see a doctor in the sports medicine field...someone who specializes in certain areas. Thats the way I view training, or at least my training. I mean if I'm going to work a takedown defense, who would be the better person for me to work with to really see if its going to work...someone who really doesnt know how to do a tackle or takedown properly, or someone whos wrestled in high school and college, or someone who does BJJ or Judo?

 

[morph4me]

And this is a reason I like to do it. I'll never leave Kenpo. But there is so much out there, that I hate the thought of limiting my way of doing things to just Kenpo. If anything, the other arts I train in, Arnis and BJJ, have all blended together so well, they all work hand in hand.

I guess another way of looking at it is like this: There are doctors that are general medicine. I can go to my doc with a knee injury and sure, he can suggest a few things, but one thing he's going to suggest is to see a doctor in the sports medicine field...someone who specializes in certain areas. Thats the way I view training, or at least my training. I mean if I'm going to work a takedown defense, who would be the better person for me to work with to really see if its going to work...someone who really doesnt know how to do a tackle or takedown properly, or someone whos wrestled in high school and college, or someone who does BJJ or Judo?

I agree with the whole post, but especially like the part I emphasized. You get better by training and working with people who are better than you are, they raise the bar and make you work harder and make your accomplishments more valuable to you, even if you never get to their level,.

 

[punisher73]

I can see both sides of this argument. While some arts may contain grappling and have concepts that when understood can be applied on the ground against someone, it doesn't mean that it will be understood.

You must have some type of instruction either from your own style/instructor or from another source to recognize the concepts and strategies and how to implement those ideas. If you look at traditional karate, most styles have either Wansu or Empi kata which teaches how to dump/throw. Now you could say that it is the only "throw" in the system, but if you look to how it is accomplished and the principles that make it work then you can start to "create" your own throws based on the principles you learned in the kata. So in effect using those tools, "it's in the style".

The other option would be to cross train in Judo which specializes in throws and learn alot more all the different throws more quickly because that what it specializes in, and then add to your arsenal the throws that work for you.

Is one way more "correct" than the other? I don't think so. Both paths through hard work will lead to the same summit, although I do believe one path might be quicker. Also, when you add elements like that you are not limited to your own imagination, knowledge and experience to come up with all the variations of the concepts.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Again something to think about? ....two sides to everything....the attacker or aggressor (S')...

NO matter how much training or knowledge....THE other person/persons...maybe better than you? ....you still can lose!

The only thing we can do is improve ourselves, it is NOT the ARTS'.

The best guys in ever art...will be successful against the average person with little or NO training.

There is NO "INVINCBLE MARTIAL ARTS" ...NO SUCH THING!

It will always be the individual who makes the art (almost "invincble")...

So the best self-defence is "YOU" ...your training will make it the best for you...

Aloha ( Poking someone eyes...or striking the groin...breaking ...does not take years to learn)

PS: guns and knife too!

 

[SageGhost83]

Hello, Again something to think about? ....two sides to everything....the attacker or aggressor (S')...

NO matter how much training or knowledge....THE other person/persons...maybe better than you? ....you still can lose!

The only thing we can do is improve ourselves, it is NOT the ARTS'.

The best guys in ever art...will be successful against the average person with little or NO training.

There is NO "INVINCBLE MARTIAL ARTS" ...NO SUCH THING!

It will always be the individual who makes the art (almost "invincble")...

So the best self-defence is "YOU" ...your training will make it the best for you...

Aloha ( Poking someone eyes...or striking the groin...breaking ...does not take years to learn)

PS: guns and knife too!

So true. No matter which style we choose or how much we train in it, there will always be someone smarter, stronger, faster, better, and just plain luckier than us. Nobody is invincible, there is somebody for everybody. I am certainly not in a rush to meet my somebody, so I would rather use my awareness and decision making to avoid a conflict in the first place.