Kata Critique

[Flying Crane]

Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense. OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration. Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.

Maybe. And it depends.

You can always have an opinion. It might not be worth much. Having experience with something else may not make your opinion worth much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So basically when judging a kata/form from another style this is all you have to go on and if they 'perform' your specifics the kata is good. The rest might be rubbish but as long as they do this it's fine?

There are more in that list such as:

- 6 harmony,
- speed,
- balance,
- power,
- concentration,
- art,
- ...

The art part can also be interested. When you throw 3 punches, you can throw:

- fast, fast, fast.
- fast, slow, fast,
- slow, fast, fast,
- ...

It's like the drum beats - art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Never head karate body mechanics referred to like that before. Is this term something you personally coined?

It's a Chinese term "Shenfa - body method (or body language)". It means how well that you can use your body to explain what you intend to do. For example, you can train a sword form without using a sword.

 

[pgsmith]

Constantly amazed by so many people's insistence that their way and their knowledge is the only correct way and knowledge.

How did that old saying about cups go ....

 

[Flying Crane]

I’ve come to believe there is no such thing as doing kata well.
Kata is practice and training. Kata is simply to be done again. And again.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Constantly amazed by so many people's insistence that their way and their knowledge is the only correct way and knowledge.

How did that old saying about cups go ....

It's not "You are wrong and I'm right." It's "You look at it from the Japanese point of view, and I look at it from the Chinese point of view."

When you throw 3 punches, you may like to throw fast, slow, fast. I may like to throw slow, fast, fast. Both methods are just different.

 

[Tez3]

BUT, how can you judge a Rembrandt versus a Monet versus a Picasso on how well they painted a tree? Each one is beautiful within the methods of their expression.

Well exactly, so why do it?

you are fortunate to have a good concentration of schools in a reasonable geographic area

Well let's face it England is a small place and martial arts here aren't nearly as commercial.

There are more in that list such as:

- 6 harmony,
- speed,
- balance,
- power,
- concentration,
- art,
- ...

The art part can also be interested. When you throw 3 punches, you can throw:

- fast, fast, fast.
- fast, slow, fast,
- slow, fast, fast,
- ...

It's like the drum beats - art.

And? we all know you can throw a combination of punches but in kata they need to be in the right order and correctly, how do you know that they are done the way the style's kata demands? Or do you just award points because it looks good.

I tried a few JKD classes run by a friend of mine a while back, I couldn't manage to get the differences in stances, execution of strikes and a lot of other things, not to mention the strain on my worn out knees. My point is that it's vey different from Wado Ryu karate and without knowing and understanding those differences how can you give scores that do justice to the competitor? I would not judge any of their forms, it would be rude of me to think I could. I have too much respect for other people to judge their katas.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how do you know that they are done the way the style's kata demands? Or do you just award points because it looks good.

I agree that we do need to have some knowledge about the MA system that we judge. That's why in CMA tournament, there are judges in 3 categories.

1. northern style - long fist, preying mantis, Baji, Tongbei, ...
2. southern style - WC, CLF, Hong Ga, southern mantis, ...
3. internal style - Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, XYLH, ...

There was a Taiji Legacy tournament in Dallas many years ago. A guy did a long fist form while competed in a Baji form division. After every judges gave that guy a score, I gave him 8.0 (score from 8.0 to 9.0). The lowest score that any judge could offer. After I had explained my reason. I then found out that I was the only judge among those 5 judges who understood what Baji form suppose to look like (compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum).

Here is a Baji form.

If you compare it to the long fist form, it's easy to tell the difference. There is no compress and release in the long fist form.

 

[punisher73]

I agree that we do need to have some knowledge about the MA system that we judge. That's why in CMA tournament, there are judges in 3 categories.

1. northern style - long fist, preying mantis, Baji, Tongbei, ...
2. southern style - WC, CLF, Hong Ga, southern mantis, ...
3. internal style - Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, XYLH, ...

There was a Taiji Legacy tournament in Dallas many years ago. A guy did a long fist form while competed in a Baji form division. After every judges gave that guy a score, I gave him 8.0 (score from 8.0 to 9.0). The lowest score that any judge could offer. After I had explained my reason. I then found out that I was the only judge among those 5 judges who understood what Baji form suppose to look like (compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum).

Here is a Baji form.

If you compare it to the long fist form, it's easy to tell the difference. There is no compress and release in the long fist form.

It seems to me that your example is exactly what Tez and myself are talking about (sorry Tez, not trying to put words in your mouth). If you had not been there, the judging would have been inaccurate. So why judge someone else's style?

 

[Yokozuna514]

Respectfully, I do not believe anyone here is trying to convince you to judge another style's kata if you are not comfortable with it. In the same respect, if I volunteer to judge at a tournament, I cannot in good conscience have a list of what I will do and what I will not do. If each judge did that, it may be difficult to run a tournament. If you know in advance that their may be other styles attending a tournament you are judging in and you prefer to exclude yourself, then so be it.

I'm really not here to argue with anyone but to exchange points of view on martial arts with other folks who are interested in doing the same. Yours and mine differ here. Not a problem for me but thanks for sharing your point of view.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.

I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.

I mostly agree

shes smooth and quick which is nice, i personally would have liked to have seen a bit more hip action

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i personally would have liked to have seen a bit more hip action

Some MA styles have more "body method" than others.

 

[Tez3]

Respectfully, I do not believe anyone here is trying to convince you to judge another style's kata

I'm not arguing either just trying to understand on what points a karateka could judge a CMA form ( and vice versa) fairly because I cannot see how without specific knowledge of something you can judge it against other things you also don't understand.

 

[pdg]

I'm not arguing either just trying to understand on what points a karateka could judge a CMA form ( and vice versa) fairly because I cannot see how without specific knowledge of something you can judge it against other things you also don't understand.

Even given the relationship with tkd, I couldn't fairly judge a 'karate' variant kata without a lot of prior research into what's supposed to be going on.

Different movement, different sequences, different timings - about the only thing I might be able to assess is effort, but even then how do I judge what is supposed to be relaxed and what is tense?

As for CMA, toss a coin really...

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah I can see both sides. I compete in all styles tournaments and I honestly wouldn't know how to judge CMA forms, they're so different... but that's the thing. We can say all this, but without understanding the SPECIFIC judging and referring guidelines for a specific tournament, we don't know.

For example, I've taken a photo of part of the competition rules/criteria for my tournaments (thought this might be more helpful than speculation!). Here is what they look for: (and you can see they try their best to eliminate bias)

All judges also have to undergo the referring courses/seminars specific to this tournament circuit, so they're as close to the same page as they can be for an all styles tournament

 

[_Simon_]

Here is a Baji form.

And wooow, I enjoyed that! He was like a coiled spring, and then POP!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And wooow, I enjoyed that! He was like a coiled spring, and then POP!

Back in the 80th, there were a group of Japanese karate guys that went to China just to investigate the Baji system. Some Karate guys think that the "compress and release" principle can be added into their Karate system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

dup, deleted.

 

[_Simon_]

Back in the 80th, there were a group of Japanese karate guys that went to China just to investigate the Baji system. Some Karate guys think that the "compress and release" principle can be added into their Karate system.

Wow, very cool. I can't say I understand the CMA forms but dang they're cool. And I'd love to incorporate compress and release into my karate, it sort of uses it already, but I'd imagine in a different way to CMA

 

[Tez3]

For example, I've taken a photo of part of the competition rules/criteria for my tournaments (thought this might be more helpful than speculation!). Here is what they look for: (and you can see they try their best to eliminate bias)

Thank you, this seems to more the judging of artistic style rather than kata something I think single style comps don't do. It's more of a surface judgement than one of an in depth understanding of the kata you are doing which is what a single style comp does I think. Sounds good if that's what you like, I prefer the single style concept for sure.

I did love the warning to parents though! I've seen parents in all sorts of activities from gymkhanas to football matches rage at officials when their little darling didn't do as well as they thought they should.