Kata Critique

[JR 137]

I don't think Uechi ryu does hip.

I also don't believe in judging kata. Once you go down that road karate becomes dancing.

Just because someone does it in a tournament doesn’t mean that’s the only thing they do with it or that’s the only way it’s used.

I’ve done kata in tournaments. I do it because I like competing, I like the preparation for the tournament more than the tournament itself, and it’s a great way to break up the monotony of training the same way all the time.

It’s fun. It’s a great change. I wouldn’t do it year-round though. There’s a karate school near my house who does all point sparring and kata solely for competition. They don’t do much of anything else. Obviously I haven’t joined that school. But that doesn’t mean I can’t do what they do for a few weeks a year. That’s not going to be detrimental to my overall training. In fact, I’ve found it helps quite a bit. When you’ve got a competition deadline coming up, you address your weaknesses with a greater sense of urgency. When you don’t, it’s easy to put them off.

 

[Buka]

I thought Renee (the first woman shown) did a fine job on that Kata.

But the second woman, Rika? That Kata was the balls. Wow.

I like Uechi.

 

[punisher73]

For comparison. This is Toyama Sensei, one of Kanbun's original students and kept the kata the way he learned them from Kanbun. He did not alter them to Kanei's method, so it retains mroe of the original chinese flavor to them.

One of the things you will notice in his execution is that many stances are "drops in place" as opposed to stepping forward into the movement. With his gi top off, he is also showing many of the internal muscular changes that were a part of the kata that can't really be seen.

 

[DaveB]

Competing or displaying Kata is a quality way to expand the value of doing forms. It allows personal interpretation while adhering to the original confines of the pattern. Being judged or critiqued adds a mental and maturation component that has great value in personal growth. It is a great way to cultivate experience outside your own dojo/dojang and create comradery with other people in the MA family. Plus, it is just fun.

I'm sure all of the above is true.

But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.

Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.

Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art.

There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?

 

[Tez3]

So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure all of the above is true.

But in taking a training tool and judging it's execution on arbitrary standards like aesthetics or how close you many veins you can make bulge out of your neck, we are inventing a whole element to the practice that not only detracts from the purpose of kata but actively confuses it.

Try and imagine a world where boxing tournaments included artistic speed ball drilling.

Tournament kata is time spent mastering non martial skills and it is ingraining incorrect performance of kata. Sure on an individual level obsess all you want over performance but my issue is the cultural impact that aesthetic kata performance has had on the art.

There are plenty of dance schools. If that's what you enjoy why go to a karate club to find it?

I tend to agree. Kata were originally a training tool meant to help develop your skill. It was never meant to be put on display or turned into performance art. The only people who were ever meant to see your kata are your teacher, your classmates, and your students. It is not so much for the sake of secrecty (although that has been used as a reason), but rather outside of those people, other people would have no context for it to have meaning.

It’s a bit like going to look at a house that you want to buy, and asking the builder to show you his tool set. The house is what matters, not what tools he used to build it.

 

[JR 137]

So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.

Actually, I think Uechi Ryu kata were just recently accepted into WKF competition. I think they were added to the accepted kata list right around the time they got the Olympic nod. They added a few others from other styles, such as the Mas Oyama created kata Garyu.

There’s a lot of crossover between styles. Stances, timing, focus, etc. I’m sure the highest level judges are being taught what to look for with the new kata list.

As far as lower level competition, they typically try to get judges from many styles involved. And if I’m a judge and have never seen Uechi Ryu kata, after some time I’d catch on and know what to expect. Sure there’s an unfair to the competitor learning curve, but it is what it is.

 

[pdg]

It’s a bit like going to look at a house that you want to buy, and asking the builder to show you his tool set. The house is what matters, not what tools he used to build it.

Not so sure that's a great analogy - for me at least.

If someone has nasty tools that don't get looked after there's a very high chance that slipshod attitude will show in the quality of their work...

They don't need to be the best tools, but how they're used and cared for speaks volumes.

 

[Buka]

I agree to a certain extent. However, I tend to look at the shape a practioner is in in striking arts. It’s always blown my mind when I see a Martial Artist, at least a serious Martial Artist, especially a long term Martial Artist, who is in poor shape physically. I’m not speaking of poor health due to disease or injuries, I just mean being out of shape.

How the hell do you get out of shape training Martial Arts?

And I tell you what, if we’re training, or sparring, or competing against each other, or we’re fighting for real...if you come in out of shape, your ash is mine, fellas.

And, Toyama Sensie, the older man doing that Kata? That’s a guy I want to train with.

 

[punisher73]

I agree to a certain extent. However, I tend to look at the shape a practioner is in in striking arts. It’s always blown my mind when I see a Martial Artist, at least a serious Martial Artist, especially a long term Martial Artist, who is in poor shape physically. I’m not speaking of poor health due to disease or injuries, I just mean being out of shape.

How the hell do you get out of shape training Martial Arts?

And I tell you what, if we’re training, or sparring, or competing against each other, or we’re fighting for real...if you come in out of shape, your ash is mine, fellas.

And, Toyama Sensie, the older man doing that Kata? That’s a guy I want to train with.

Agreed, look into Shinyu Gushi as well, both Uechi stylists. Unfortunately, both have passed away.

 

[JR 137]

Agreed, look into Shinyu Gushi as well, both Uechi stylists. Unfortunately, both have passed away.

I was just going to mention Gushi. I never got tired of watching his stuff. I was going to post a video of him doing some kata, but the Toyama video was already posted.

What the hell. Gushi doing Sanseiru (I believe the kata that was done in the OP video...

And Gushi doing Sanchin...

 

[Flying Crane]

Not so sure that's a great analogy - for me at least.

If someone has nasty tools that don't get looked after there's a very high chance that slipshod attitude will show in the quality of their work...

They don't need to be the best tools, but how they're used and cared for speaks volumes.

Sure, but nobody asks to see the builders tools when they go look at a house. The builder does not advertise a new house for sale by showing his tools or listing the brand name of his tools.

 

[Flying Crane]

So far I have seen only one poster qualified to judge the kata as he's from the same style. How can people who don't do that style judge something they don't know?
I do Wado Ryu, a Japanese style and I would disagree with the generalisation though about the way Japanese katas are done, I've found that each style has it's own way of doing them.

Which is a big part of what can go wrong in kata competition.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Kata, for me, is the soul of karate. It is the quest for perfection in movement. Doing kata exposes weaknesses in technique and gives a student the opportunity to focus their training to improve that aspect. Participating in kata during a tournament setting also gives a student the opportunity to see how they stack up against their peers.

That being said, in able to judge kata, you need to understand what the 'perfect' elements of the kata are to judge it accordingly, imho. Does that mean you cannot judge a kata you are unfamiliar with ? No, you should be able to see the depth in training that has gone into the performance and judge it according to your own criteria and experience of what constitutes a perfect kata but without understanding the frame of reference, your score may differ from someone who practices that kata regularly and knows exactly what is required to do the kata perfectly.

 

[Tez3]

Which is a big part of what can go wrong in kata competition.

I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.

 

[Flying Crane]

I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.

Very common over here. And not just different karate methods, but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but Japanese judging Korean judging Chinese methods, etc., I think it’s a problem, just does not work well.

If you own a car that has square wheels and rotate as 1, 2, 3, 4, and 1, 2, 3, 4, it will be difficult for you to appreciate a car with circular wheels that rotate smoothly.

 

[hoshin1600]

I've only ever done kata in Wado Ryu competitions, along with kumite ( supposedly those were semi contact but were always full lol) I've never judged anyone else's style either. How would I even know if they were doing the correct techniques for that style? Nope, stick to our own says I.
I assume mixed style comps are popular in the US, not heard of many here.

your post is kind of what i was getting at. the op clip of Renee was an open Japanese competition, (from what i could tell). judging a kata in Japan is going to be different than a pure Uechi gathering, say in the US. the judges are looking for things more common in the styles they are familiar with.

 

[Tez3]

your post is kind of what i was getting at. the op clip of Renee was an open Japanese competition, (from what i could tell). judging a kata in Japan is going to be different than a pure Uechi gathering, say in the US. the judges are looking for things more common in the styles they are familiar with.

The Japanese styles I know of are different so even judging them would be more difficult than judging your own.

 

[_Simon_]

I thought she did a good job. But I'm not sure of the particular characteristics of Uechi Ryu so yep, hard to judge. Very different style of kata to perform in a tournament!

I thought Renee (the first woman shown) did a fine job on that Kata.

But the second woman, Rika? That Kata was the balls. Wow.

I like Uechi.

Yep, Rika is incredible...