Kata Critique

[DaveB]

When you can offer something of substance instead of coughing up ignorant opinions about something you clearly know little about I will listen. Clearly you don't care but you should. Have no clue what a pram is and now I am certain I couldn't care less about your ideas. <0value

A pram is a wheeled thing you lay a baby in to transport them by pushing.

 

[Tez3]

kata as performance rather than kata as training

I think this is a fundamental difference that many aren't getting. I don't honestly see how my competing in a mixed style competition will help my training in actual karate and the self defence that kata is, for us, meant for. I can see how competing in these competitions would help my performance and help me to win a trophy. Adding extra flashy kicks, Kiai-ing louder, audible breathing etc. the frills that make a performance noteworthy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

If we're talking absolutes, then really we're all not...

You're only a Master Black Belt, and I outrank you with being a Senior Master

I'm only a "Master" 'cause the forum computer said so.

 

[Tez3]

A pram is a wheeled thing you lay a baby in to transport them by pushing.

Short for perambulator.

 

[pgsmith]

I think this is a fundamental difference that many aren't getting. I don't honestly see how my competing in a mixed style competition will help my training in actual karate and the self defence that kata is, for us, meant for. I can see how competing in these competitions would help my performance and help me to win a trophy. Adding extra flashy kicks, Kiai-ing louder, audible breathing etc. the frills that make a performance noteworthy.

And therein lies the rub. There are a great many people that share your point of view, which is absolutely valid for you. However, there are also a great many people that feel that there is value in mixed style competitions, and their point of view is valid for them also. Everyone must decide what is valid for themselves in regards their own personal practice, and just because their own view on validity is different, it doesn't make their view wrong ... just different. Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.

From my own experience, I enjoy mixed style competitions, although I speak of Japanese sword art competitions rather than karate competitions. In a mixed style JSA competition (I've been to quite a few over the years) people compete in kata, and also in performing various pre-determined cutting sequences on targets. The only real benefit as a practitioner from the competition itself is the fact that you are required to go up in front of a panel of judges as well as a live audience, and perform your cuts or kata with everyone watching. It does add quite a bit of pressure that's missing from a normal dojo setting.

However, the real benefits that I've garnered from these competitions are before and after the actual competition itself. There are always seminars given by the various high ranking judges in various different styles. There is always a demonstration the night before the competition where a large number different styles are represented by high ranking individuals. There are also evenings in the local bar where friendships are made and lots of good information is handed out with and amongst various high ranking individuals from a number of different styles. The intangible benefits I've gained over the years have been invaluable.

Of course, we also don't have to deal with adding flashy kicks, audible breathing, or otherwise changing our individual kata to make them more "performance worthy".

 

[Tez3]

Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.

Oh ain't that the truth.

What I find a bit annoying is when I was asking questions on here one poster in particular assumed I was arguing that my way was right, when I was actually asking 'how'. it's a bit sad I still haven't had my questions answered by that poster. Other have explained though which is good.

The only real benefit as a practitioner from the competition itself is the fact that you are required to go up in front of a panel of judges as well as a live audience, and perform your cuts or kata with everyone watching. It does add quite a bit of pressure that's missing from a normal dojo setting.

We do that in our single style comps, it is pressure because of everyone knowing exactly what you should be doing.

There are always seminars given by the various high ranking judges in various different styles. There is always a demonstration the night before the competition where a large number different styles are represented by high ranking individuals. There are also evenings in the local bar where friendships are made and lots of good information is handed out with and amongst various high ranking individuals from a number of different styles. The intangible benefits I've gained over the years have been invaluable.

We've never had that, and mixed style comps as I said are few and far between here, I think I've only seen one advertised in years, it was only a day comp, had sparring as well, no seminars etc which sound fun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do people use form to perform? When a group of "old" MA people get together, they are too old to spar/wrestle, but they want to exchange MA information, what can they do? They can perform they art.

This is why the CMA has 3 different ways to do the form. You can do form for

1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. health - punch out slow, pull back fast.
3. performance - punch out fast, freeze, pull back slow.

The breathing method are all different too.

 

[Yokozuna514]

And therein lies the rub. There are a great many people that share your point of view, which is absolutely valid for you. However, there are also a great many people that feel that there is value in mixed style competitions, and their point of view is valid for them also. Everyone must decide what is valid for themselves in regards their own personal practice, and just because their own view on validity is different, it doesn't make their view wrong ... just different. Lots of people seem to have big problems with different.

Very well put, pgsmith.

 

[Buka]

Those familiar with my posts know, I never did Kata as part of my training, because American Karate at the time didn't have Kata. But two groups of people in open tournaments always asked me to judge Black Belt Kata. The promoters and the competitors. I always said yes and judged. They asked because they knew I didn't play favorites to any one style or person, they knew I had an experienced eye, and they knew I didn't give a crap about pissing anyone off.

"But how can you KNOW whether or not the people doing Katas are making mistakes?!/!"

You can't, really, unless they're obvious mistakes. If you do your Whatever Style Kata and perform a couple of moves out of order, I probably won't notice - especially if you know how to cover, but that's okay, I'll judge you on the Kata as I see it.

Apparently it all worked okay. They asked me a dozen times a year for about twenty years, couldn't have been too many complaints.

I was asked to judge in some Invitation Only tournaments of various particular styles. I think it was to balance out the judging and to shake up the competitors.

I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is. As I understand it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of sport competition. But we all know why it's in competitions....there are usually fee$ to enter competition.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is

I actually agree, we did kata comps within our style and it was judged on how you did our styles kata which is basically how our founder did them. Fees not involved though.

 

[_Simon_]

Those familiar with my posts know, I never did Kata as part of my training, because American Karate at the time didn't have Kata. But two groups of people in open tournaments always asked me to judge Black Belt Kata. The promoters and the competitors. I always said yes and judged. They asked because they knew I didn't play favorites to any one style or person, they knew I had an experienced eye, and they knew I didn't give a crap about pissing anyone off.

"But how can you KNOW whether or not the people doing Katas are making mistakes?!/!"

You can't, really, unless they're obvious mistakes. If you do your Whatever Style Kata and perform a couple of moves out of order, I probably won't notice - especially if you know how to cover, but that's okay, I'll judge you on the Kata as I see it.

Apparently it all worked okay. They asked me a dozen times a year for about twenty years, couldn't have been too many complaints.

I was asked to judge in some Invitation Only tournaments of various particular styles. I think it was to balance out the judging and to shake up the competitors.

Ah nice, didn't know that!

I don't think Kata should even be in any competition, doesn't make much sense to me that it is. As I understand it, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideas of sport competition. But we all know why it's in competitions....there are usually fee$ to enter competition.

Ah ok fair enough. I know the comps I'm involved in are incredibly integrous and not out to make money. And all the judges, referees, officials, timekeepers, scorers etc are all volunteers too, they use their own free time to be involved, and don't get paid a cent! They do get lunch provided though .

There is a fee to compete in them, but it's a massive thing to run, it's insane the amount of organisation involved, especially in the bigger ones, so I'm happy to support them, as I know they're intention is to bring martial artists together, and to break down any walls between 'styles' and gain new perspectives and appreciation for other styles, and new friendships.

I love kata in competition. There's something truly special about it... and anyone who has walked into the centre of that ring, solo, not relying on anyone and remaining focused and in that zone has felt that.

All performance dramatics aside (which can certainly detract from the meaning of it), I see it as a judge of solid stance, technique, power, tension and relaxation where appropriate, body control, focus, discipline, performance under pressure, proper breathing, ability to move forward despite any mistakes made, transitions, balance, alignment, posture, intention, spirit, and determination. The performance kata is like a communication of these particular aspects of what, to me, karate is also about. Which I'd say is just as if not more important than fighting application. But then I'm weird like that ;P.

I have also cried watching some katas being performed, and not ashamed to admit that XD. There are certain people who just embody karate with all their heart and soul, and you could intuit their intention and energy as they perform and far out, you could see the difference in power and well, everything..

But I do see why many don't see the value of kata in competition for sure, I do understand that, and I guess it comes down to what kata and karate means to them.

 

[dvcochran]

Ah nice, didn't know that!



Ah ok fair enough. I know the comps I'm involved in are incredibly integrous and not out to make money. And all the judges, referees, officials, timekeepers, scorers etc are all volunteers too, they use their own free time to be involved, and don't get paid a cent! They do get lunch provided though .

There is a fee to compete in them, but it's a massive thing to run, it's insane the amount of organisation involved, especially in the bigger ones, so I'm happy to support them, as I know they're intention is to bring martial artists together, and to break down any walls between 'styles' and gain new perspectives and appreciation for other styles, and new friendships.

I love kata in competition. There's something truly special about it... and anyone who has walked into the centre of that ring, solo, not relying on anyone and remaining focused and in that zone has felt that.

All performance dramatics aside (which can certainly detract from the meaning of it), I see it as a judge of solid stance, technique, power, tension and relaxation where appropriate, body control, focus, discipline, performance under pressure, proper breathing, ability to move forward despite any mistakes made, transitions, balance, alignment, posture, intention, spirit, and determination. The performance kata is like a communication of these particular aspects of what, to me, karate is also about. Which I'd say is just as if not more important than fighting application. But then I'm weird like that ;P.

I have also cried watching some katas being performed, and not ashamed to admit that XD. There are certain people who just embody karate with all their heart and soul, and you could intuit their intention and energy as they perform and far out, you could see the difference in power and well, everything..

But I do see why many don't see the value of kata in competition for sure, I do understand that, and I guess it comes down to what kata and karate means to them.

Very well said.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Contrast Renee's Okinawan kata with this American's Shotokan competition form, ah performance art?

ROISIN ELIZABETH CAMPBELL, KATA SOCHIN - JKA ALL JAPAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2015
2,669 views

Arild Damm
Published on Apr 3, 2016

ireneusz nowak9 months ago
She is better than many old, fat, Japanese black belts. Needs to improve her core strength and kicking

Read the comment. I caught the kicking, a bit. Kicking to true perfection is much more challenging than hands. The core strength, not sure I'm seeing much fault there. Shotokan has a muscular bias. Valuable consideration, yes.

Elizabeth's belt has master's wear. Not for me to say. What I am comfortable saying is her kata is approaching perfection in what Japanese karate can achieve. What more can we ask? Had I been on the JKA panel, my vote would have been 2nd place. That's how strongly I feel, I believe in in the substance of her accomplishment.

Edit: My limited understanding is that the JKA is a highly political environment. Yet an Amercian karateka took 3rd place in the All Japan female kata competition. A stunning achievement.

BRAVO.

 

[_Simon_]

A fitting clip from Sensei Rick Hotton (and whilst I do compete I always keep this in mind and wholeheartedly support this):

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Judging a kata by the style you train or have accomplishment in makes much sense. OTOH, I don't have to be an expert to present an informed opinion about the OP's kata illustration. Understanding kata conceptually, understanding traditional karate or traditional martial arts overall puts me in the position to express an evaluation having potential merit.

I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it. And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.

So, if I were judging kata, I'd only be able to judge on things like movement, flow (and even that's tricky, since some styles are more staccato by nature), balance, and control. So a good kata won't be terribly different from a great kata in my scoring, unless the great kata is changed to show off more balance and control, which starts to change the kata. So now the kata has been altered to appeal more to me (because I don't understand it), getting further from its original training purpose.

Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it.

Definitely true in terms of specific, exacting judging on the particular style itself.

Where I diverge is that there are varying stances within a style which accomplish certain & differing objectives. This dimension of stances exists across all styles of karate and among the traditional martial arts as a generalization. There's a horse stance in the fung fu's as a whole; there's a horse stance in Shotokan. There's a front stance in Tang Soo Do and there is a lunge stance in Shotokan. Some particular & specific variations which do exist between style, the are commonalities, common objectives. The later area I can pass some competent judgement on because of my participation and experience in traditional karate and martial arts.

And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.

Sure. Even at the expert level, no one is all knowing. Everyone puzzles over particular kata routines and what the author-masters were seeking to convey. This is the old, anti-karate argument that one really doesn't know what the kata is for or what it's trying to do. Because we are hundreds of years removed, with many interim masters, of course there is truth to that criticism.

Yet, this can be sad to be a criticism of traditional martial arts, traditional karate's as a whole generalization. The answer comes from realizing that the human potential sought to be developed through traditional martial arts training addresses comprehensively the strengths of that human potential. And that's spelled out in the manuals, the curriculum.

The other sport, physically centered methods such as boxing IMO are more integral in their design, they are easier to see how the whole system works and more practical to train. But they don't share the broad based strengths that traditional martial arts does. This TMA character is embodied in the major components of traditional karate training, kihon, kata, kumite. This character is the essence or soul of what we are looking for then, in kata.

Furthermore, the way in which traditional martial arts seeks to develop this broad-based human potential is inherently different that how boxing or wrestling's more physically centered method. The characteristic training form and practice then will also be inherent and expressed in kata.

Traditional karate - whatever the style - becomes powerful & effective when we understand and train to it's universal underlying principle aimed at the above. Hence, our kihon , kumite & kata done properly to form & intent will reflect this essence in our performance.

BTW: My interpretation then, would handle the performance art criticism of kata.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.

I think we are heading in the same direction; here's some additional explanation from where I sit.

The kata performances we often see here in the USA, with heavy gymnastic type movement & technique, I would name performance art and NOT kata. Kata is not a physical drill or athletic gym routine. That's the boxing, wrestling mindset. Doing & achieving physical skills. I would say the same for some of what I call the overly forceful physicality & exaggeration in executing technique, along with the screaming at top of one's lungs pretending to be a super kiai. This again, is trying to make kata competition into a contest of physical strength & physical talents, a demonstration of athletics.

This rendition, in actuality, defeats the benefits of kata & undermines it's broad-based traditional martial arts purpose.

 

[ShotoNoob]

A fitting clip from Sensei Rick Hotton (and whilst I do compete I always keep this in mind and wholeheartedly support this):

[vid link omitted]

What is the Sensi's karate style? His demonstrations are so advanced they make my head hurt! Surely he's at the true master level.

All performance dramatics aside (which can certainly detract from the meaning of it), I see it as a judge of solid stance, technique, power, tension and relaxation where appropriate, body control, focus, discipline, performance under pressure, proper breathing, ability to move forward despite any mistakes made, transitions, balance, alignment, posture, intention, spirit, and determination....

This interpretation of kata by you ties with your video illustration, TMU.

 

[_Simon_]

I think this is true, though only to a point. I can tell if a person is balanced and in control. I can tell if they're focusing well. But I can't judge their stances, because they aren't the stances I studied. I might not like the stance, but if it's the correct stance for that style, well, then it's correct and I won't know it. And there are many kata I've seen where I didn't like entire segments of the kata - probably because I had no idea what the point of the kata was. The same goes for some methods and styles of movement.

So, if I were judging kata, I'd only be able to judge on things like movement, flow (and even that's tricky, since some styles are more staccato by nature), balance, and control. So a good kata won't be terribly different from a great kata in my scoring, unless the great kata is changed to show off more balance and control, which starts to change the kata. So now the kata has been altered to appeal more to me (because I don't understand it), getting further from its original training purpose.

Mind you, I'm actually okay with that, so long as we agree it's becoming a performance art, rather than a training tool. I actually enjoy watching a good "flash" kata.

Very well said! Yeah one can judge it only to a certain point, so if the competition criteria are only along those lines and those more universal characteristics (which would be stated within the rules), then it could be judged by all judges, as it's only that they're looking at/for.

STILL is a tricky thing to do though I reckon... especially if some styles characterise and define 'balance' or 'power' in different ways.. ! :s

 

[_Simon_]

What is the Sensi's karate style? His demonstrations are so advanced they make my head hurt! Surely he's at the true master level.


This interpretation of kata by you ties with your video illustration, TMU.

He comes from Shotokan, but also as practiced Aikido for many years, so he blends alot of aiki principles within his teaching style of karate (so aiki-karate). He's brilliant... and I really resonate with his teachings.

Yeah I definitely see kata more in this light... and that's totally fine to see its only purpose as a practical application, self-defense reactions/drills or self defense principles, but to me it encompasses more.