Kata bunkai for self defense

[OldKarateGuy]

I know it's just a training drill but in the first video, pinan shodan, I wonder how practical it is to be changing hands all the time to strike. He is changing hands and striking where if he had the position he can continue striking until his partner defends.

These kata were developed to teach basic principles and in this particular one there may be a problem that the partners left arm is not being controlled. Not that it always has to as I teach that sometimes that fist just won't arrive. Without training it myself, I really don't know.

BTW, I do have Iain's bunkai videos. Perhaps I should watch them again.

I have to go with K man on my first impression. All that hand-changing struck me immediately as something I probably (well, almost certainly) wouldn't try myself. If you control the opponent's arm/fist, don't let go of it (or at the least, maintain the block) until you move out of range. And if you have a open strike, take it as many times as you feel it's safe. I mean, if I have control of your arm and an open strike....well, shoot. Why give that up to switch and maybe lose control? It looks cool and it's a fun drill maybe, but as a practical application if that's the discussion....maybe I'm just too slow to make it work.

I seem to think that one fairly simple explanation for Heian Nidan might be left hand back fist blocks incoming right hand, then same (left hand) hand does hammer fist block on incoming left hand, defender simultaneously strikes (attacker's) left elbow with roundhouse right hammer fist, then defender counter attacks with straight left hand. All fast...1,2,3. There's lots of esoteric possibilities but this is fairly simple, (sort-of) realistic set-up. Stance and body weight shifts to match techniques. I am probably stating the obvious with this, and apologize to the seniors for doing so.

Edit: I found and added the video below after posting.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

My JKA bias showing. A video of Heian Nidan applications with 7th dan from JKA Canada. In the first minute, he shows several variations on the first three moves. Nice

 

[K-man]

I have to go with K man on my first impression. All that hand-changing struck me immediately as something I probably (well, almost certainly) wouldn't try myself. If you control the opponent's arm/fist, don't let go of it (or at the least, maintain the block) until you move out of range. And if you have a open strike, take it as many times as you feel it's safe. I mean, if I have control of your arm and an open strike....well, shoot. Why give that up to switch and maybe lose control? It looks cool and it's a fun drill maybe, but as a practical application if that's the discussion....maybe I'm just too slow to make it work.

I seem to think that one fairly simple explanation for Heian Nidan might be left hand back fist blocks incoming right hand, then same (left hand) hand does hammer fist block on incoming left hand, defender simultaneously strikes (attacker's) left elbow with roundhouse right hammer fist, then defender counter attacks with straight left hand. All fast...1,2,3. There's lots of esoteric possibilities but this is fairly simple, (sort-of) realistic set-up. Stance and body weight shifts to match techniques. I am probably stating the obvious with this, and apologize to the seniors for doing so.

No apology needed. I'm not familiar with the kata so I haven't really had much chance to think about it. That said, what I think doesn't matter. Bunkai is all about what it means to you. In time your understanding changes no matter how long you have been training. If it doesn't change you have stopped learning.

 

[Hanzou]

My JKA bias showing. A video of Heian Nidan applications with 7th dan from JKA Canada. In the first minute, he shows several variations on the first three moves. Nice

That actually looks more feasible in terms of practicality than the vid in the OP.

 

[K-man]

My JKA bias showing. A video of Heian Nidan applications with 7th dan from JKA Canada. In the first minute, he shows several variations on the first three moves. Nice

anada.

Good applications. In fact he even did my gedan barai, that I described above, as the arm bar takedown.

The only thing I would disagree with is that kata is for multiple attackers. It can't be without choreography. Against a single attacker, once you have engaged and control one arm you can use predicted response. If I am holding your left wrist with my left hand and I strike with a knife hand to your neck. One of two things will happen. Either you will lift your right arm to protect or you get hit. If you don't lift your arm I will keep hitting until you do and if you do lift your arm I will capture it and move on to the next technique as shown in the kata, or any other technique that grabs my fancy if I see a better option.

Introduce another attacker and I have to disengage. I can no longer control the fight so I can't use kata.

 

[K-man]

That actually looks more feasible in terms of practicality than the vid in the OP.

Really? Why? For example, could it be used if the arm wasn't left outstretched? Training against a punch left hanging out to dry is not realistic training. You would have kicked my **** if I had posted something like that as a real option. I can accept his applications as an explanation of the kata but I don't believe all of it was practical.

Could I suggest again that the second video is kihon whereas Iain's is advanced. I don't normally see him doing moves that I don't agree with. The first video was one of those.

 

[dancingalone]

Very simple and trainable. The bunkai is obviously shown with a compliant partner for demonstration purposes and you have to gradually ratchet up variation of speed, angle, and combination of attacks, but it's easy enough to devise a series of lesson plans around this one.

I've taught a similar application in an open seminar with participants from a variety of styles including TKD and kajukenbo guys. They all found a fit within something they already do in their forms.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Show a karateka fight like this in MMA

Fighters in MMA usually fight like MMA fighters, makes sense really.

 

[drop bear]

For a bit of fun.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In many if not all kata there is a simple downward block. The hand may be open or closed but usually starts in the general area of the shoulder and then moves down the body covering the side of the body (maybe not) , going across the groin area ( maybe to the outside of the front leg,maybe not).

When someone attacked me by trying to kick me in the groin that is exactly what I did to defend it, three times.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That actually looks more feasible in terms of practicality than the vid in the OP.

Really? I would have thought you would have jumped on the fact that the second attacker was left unattended after his first (and only) punch.

 

[K-man]

For a bit of fun.

Which has exactly what to do with kata bunkai? Please, you have no karate knowledge. If you would like to participate in a serious discussion feel free but it has nothing to do with MMA. This is a karate forum. If you're posting "for a bit of fun" to disrupt the discussion please take your posts elsewhere.

 

[K-man]

When someone attacked me by trying to kick me in the groin that is exactly what I did to defend it, three times.

Ok, but three questions if I may.
If you had never trained would you have blocked the kick the same way?
When you 'blocked' the kick was it a strike or a block?
How come he got three goes?

Really? I would have thought you would have jumped on the fact that the second attacker was left unattended after his first (and only) punch.

Com'on! Don't tell me that doesn't happen. Surely it's only polite to wait your turn.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok, but three questions if I may.

You may.

If you had never trained would you have blocked the kick the same way?

If I had never trained I would have probably have been kicked in the groin.

When you 'blocked' the kick was it a strike or a block?

The first two were deflections the third one was a grab with me hooking my wrist under his ankle.

How come he got three goes?

Because he paused after each attempt and I made the mistake of not wanting to hurt him (a mistake I will never repeat) and I let it draw out for too long. I kept trying to walk away after each attack.but he followed me and the fight went on for a few more minutes.That was back in 1991.

 

[TimoS]

Show a karateka fight like this in MMA or even while performing full contact kumite, and you'll make a believer out of me. Until then.....

You do realize that that's not the purpose of karate kata? I'm not a big fan of the bunkai shown, but you have to realize that there are other uses for a martial art than just MMA. Or shall we dismiss all the so-called reality based systems such as Krav Maga just because you don't see them compete?

 

[drop bear]

Which has exactly what to do with kata bunkai? Please, you have no karate knowledge. If you would like to participate in a serious discussion feel free but it has nothing to do with MMA. This is a karate forum. If you're posting "for a bit of fun" to disrupt the discussion please take your posts elsewhere.

Just to explain that the concept of bunkai exists in other styles even if kata does not. This is a discussion on bunkai. Which we call drills or flow drills or even Dutch drills.

This will help your understanding of bunkai when the concept is reflected in other systems.

You said this yourself when you do akido to understand karate kata.

That drill is the most recognized form of grappling bunkai. And a prime example of how concepts flow from one style to another.

Or as i put it.

A bit of fun.

 

[K-man]

Just to explain that the concept of bunkai exists in other styles even if kata does not. This is a discussion on bunkai. Which we call drills or flow drills or even Dutch drills.

This will help your understanding of bunkai when the concept is reflected in other systems.

You said this yourself when you do akido to understand karate kata.

That drill is the most recognized form of grappling bunkai. And a prime example of how concepts flow from one style to another.

Or as i put it.

A bit of fun.

This is a karate forum.

I'm just going to paste from Wiki.

Bunkai (分解?), literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to the application of fighting techniques extracted from the moves of a "form" (kata).

Bunkai is usually performed with a partner or a group of partners which execute predefined attacks, and the student performing the kata responds with defenses, counterattacks, or other actions, based on a part of the kata. This allows the student in the middle to understand what the movements in kata are meant to accomplish. It may also illustrate how to improve technique by adjusting distances, time moves properly, and adapt a technique depending on the size of an opponent.

Some kata have another layer of application that is taught using an Oyo Bunkai, an "application of the kata in ways other than the standard bunkai." Different practitioners will learn or discover alternative applications, but the bunkai, like the kata, varies based on the style and the teacher.

What you posted was not Japanese, not from kata and not bunkai. As I said, I'm happy to have a sensible discussion with you but without any experience in karate, kata or bunkai, I doubt you have much to offer. If, however, you would genuinely like to try to understand bunkai, I'll go with that. Otherwise please don't try to disrupt yet another thread!

It's not fun, it's not bunkai and Dutch is nothing to do with Japanese. I study Aikido to learn the techniques that I use in bunkai. Aikido also has some kata but this is not the thread to discuss it.

 

[K-man]

You do realize that that's not the purpose of karate kata? I'm not a big fan of the bunkai shown, but you have to realize that there are other uses for a martial art than just MMA. Or shall we dismiss all the so-called reality based systems such as Krav Maga just because you don't see them compete?

He's already told me Krav is rubbish because we don't perform the strikes at full power in our training. I can just image the guys going home every night after being kneed in the face a couple of times. You will never win! Nothing will ever come close to MMA because it is real fighting.

 

[Tez3]

I am absolutely pants when it comes to describing moves and techniques I get quite muddled up trying to describe them, I can demonstrate though which isn't much use here but it's a hugely interesting thread about something dear to my heart.
The video from drop bear totally missed the point, it added nothing to what would be a very interesting discussion if left to those that have an actual interest in bunkai.
On one of the seminars I did that Iain Abernethy took I remember him saying that in SD his plan A is to punch the attacker and KO him ( he has very heavy hands btw, he's a powerful striker) but bunkai provides all the plans after that which means he has reliable, tried and tested techniques to survive an attack. He also says walking away before an attack happens is ideal, awareness comes into it big style ( he'd been contacted by someone who was at a station waiting for a train and had become concerned by youths who seemed to be looking for trouble, he'd walked away across to another platform out of the way. He'd contacted Iain because he felt he should have been able to defend himself when attacked. Iain said what the chap had done was perfect self defence and exactly what he would have done too)

 

[ShotoNoob]

In many if not all kata there is a simple downward block. The hand may be open or closed but usually starts in the general area of the shoulder and then moves down the body covering the side of the body (maybe not) , going across the groin area ( maybe to the outside of the front leg,maybe not). For the sake of keeping in mind what the OP asks lets start with discussing what applications this move may involve.

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I think this is precisely the way traditional karate should be approached. Another poster stated with regard to Shotokan karate, which the taikyoku kata would definitely apply here, the Okinawan Masters had a simplification objective in mind, which later could be built on.... As per your statement below...

I believe it is usually considered a block for a kick to the midsection of the body or groin but can we have some differing opinions of possible use age and how this simple move can be applied maybe in combination with the next move to become something completely different.
Not trying to derail but I think this may be what the OP was looking for

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Kata is series of interconnected movements, isn't it?