Karate Do?

[opr1945]

I have seen things like "Karate Do is Life", Karate is a way of Life." I have a sign in my office that says "it's not about being than someone else, it's about being better than you were yesterday. "

during my life I have visited probably 25 Dojos to inquire about their program. Studied at 3 for short periods of time, a few months, before life got in the way. Only one had more than a physical program. In addition to physical training they offered classroom instruction on life skills/philosophy.

So where does a student learn what the rest of Karate is about, the principles, or how to apply Karate principles in their life?

Is it all independent study?

Niju Kun

1. Karate begins and ends with courtesy and respect

2. Never strike first

3. Be on the side of justice

4. Control yourself before engaging others

5. Mental attitude is more important than technique

6. Empty your mind and be present

7. Accidents stem from lack of attention

8. Carry karate values beyond the dojo

9. Karate is a life-long endeavour

10. Bring karate into your whole life and find inner peace

11. Karate is like boiling water: without applying heat it turns cold

12. Never strive to win - instead, make sure you do not lose

13. Use the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent

14. Winning depends on the right application of softness and hardness

15. Think of hands and feet as swords

16. When you step through a door, be ready to face opponents

17. First master the karate stances, then adopt a natural pose

18. Perform kata with firmness; perform combat with fluidity

19. Apply softness & hardness, contraction & expansion, relaxation & speed

20. Be mindful, diligent and resourceful in the dojo and in life

 

[Taiji Rebel]

The following book is useful for your quest - I have read it a number of times over the last few years and always find something new to consider:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm not a karateka, but my martial arts are very much a way of life for me. I've been training for close to 44 years now and I have taken many lessons off the mats to benefit the rest of my life. My thoughts on the subject ...

IMO, dojo classroom instruction time spent on life skills/philosophy is relatively meaningless. Being a martial arts instructor does not qualify someone as a life coach. Some instructors may indeed have worthwhile life lessons to impart. But then, so do some plumbers, painters, lawyers, doctors, truck drivers, and representatives of almost any profession.

More importantly, a martial art is an embodied, physical practice. Learning and reciting a list of tenets in an official creed will not make you internalize those principles or use them in your daily life. But if your daily practice instills certain physical and mental concepts and attributes, then these are tools you can apply in your daily life, should you so choose.

I wrote an essay on that subject some years back: Self-Improvement

I'll add that I very occasionally ramble for a few minutes at the end of class to point out some concept that students could carry over from the mat to their daily life. But I don't do that regularly. It's just to give them the heads up that they have the option of finding a broader use for their dojo experience. If I have something of value to offer in terms of "martial arts as a way of life", it's much more to do with the example I set, the way I run class, and carry myself on the mat.

 

[J. Pickard]

The value of the philosophical lessons in any martial art are subjective to the individual. I think it's a great thing to expose students to but it should be a sort of independent study so the individual can find how it applies to them specifically and not something class time is spent on. Just within the first 3 you listed I can think of examples of how it's vague or the definitions change. 1. Karate begins and end with courtesy and respect. Sure, I think we all try our best to respect others but can also acknowledge that there are things in life that souldn't be respected at all, where do we draw that line? 2. There is no first strike. I have seen entire chapters of books written on this concept alone and what it means and none of them are exactly the same. From a fight perspective it's bad advice given that action is faster than reaction, so would it be better to translate it as use karate to defend yourself only and not to start fights? Seems open to interpretation and discussion. 3. Be on the side of justice. Who's justice? Just according to what exactly? I could do this for everything on your list. These are great topics for individual discussion and philosophical debate but given the nature of them trying to impose your own interpretation on your students is akin to indoctrination and should be avoided IMO.

 

[wab25]

One thing to keep in mind, is that the Niju Kun has many different translations.... which can lead to very different interpretations. Here are 3 different translations, from different Shotokan schools:
1. UKAI Midwest - Niju Kun (20 Precepts)
2. Shoto Niju Kun - ISKF
3. Shotokan Niju Kun The 20 Precepts Of Karatedo

Lets look at one (#2 actually):
from above: "Never strike first"
from 1. "There is no first strike in karate."
from 2. "In karate, never attack first"
from 3. "There is no first strike in karate."

Now lets look at the Karate Do Kyohan, by Funakoshi (Karate Do Kyohan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive)
From page 35, talking about the Taikyoku Kata:

Moreover, the student who has gained proficiency in basic techniques and understands the essence of the Taikyoku Kata will appreciate the real meaning of the maxim, “In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack.”

​

The point here is that reciting a list does nothing to help someone understand it. You have to do your own work, your own research. You have to ask questions. What you get from #2 is likely very different than what I get from #2.... much of that will depend on which translation we heard first and how much value we assign to the other translations. Then consider, that maybe all the translations have value....

This type of journey should be a personal journey, taken by each Martial Artist....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2. Never strike first

If you always wait for your opponent to move in. You have never trained how to move into your opponent. How will you be able to train your advance footwork such as running punch?



If you always let your opponent to strike first, you may not be able to stop him after that.

 

[wab25]

If you always wait for your opponent to move in. You have never trained how to move into your opponent. How will you be able to train your advance footwork such as running punch?

This is the problem.... you are arguing against only one of the interpretations: Never strike first

Another interpretation is: There is no first strike in karate
This can be meant to say, you both attack at the same time.... your opponent attacks, but you are so in tune with him, that you simultaneously attack the opening that his attack leaves. You cannot start first, the opening is not there, and if you show your attack, the opening will never be there. If you start late, you will not be fast enough.... you both start at the same time, meaning neither of you is first.

Another interpretation is: In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack
The Taikyoku Kata are sets of block -> punch and turn -> block -> punch
First the student is blocking and then punching, no advantage, because the first attack is blocked. Then the student learns that the block should not just block, but create an opening for the punch. Then the student learns that the block and the punch are at the same time, clearing the defense while striking through the opening as it is being cleared. Then the student learns that the block is an attack in itself....

There are all kinds of ways to learn from these maxims.... add in the multiple different translations and you get many more things to learn......

 

[opr1945]

Okay, my error. I only cited the Niju Kun as one example of applying karate principles to life outside the dojo. My limited experience is that students come the dojo and do physical activities then go home, and hopefully continue to practice those same activities.

As an example: #5 Mental attitude is more important than technique. when/how does te student learn to implement this concept?

I have purchased books on what are the principles of living a Karate Do life and how to apply them in my every day life. But I am an old man, with more time than I know what to do with. That is actually how I came to be Karate student.

Caveat--I don't want someone teaching me their religion. And there is a certain parallel to religion in having directions on how to live your life.

 

[opr1945]

One more. LOL.

 

[Same Trick]

This is the problem.... you are arguing against only one of the interpretations: Never strike first

Another interpretation is: There is no first strike in karate
This can be meant to say, you both attack at the same time.... your opponent attacks, but you are so in tune with him, that you simultaneously attack the opening that his attack leaves. You cannot start first, the opening is not there, and if you show your attack, the opening will never be there. If you start late, you will not be fast enough.... you both start at the same time, meaning neither of you is first.

Another interpretation is: In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack
The Taikyoku Kata are sets of block -> punch and turn -> block -> punch
First the student is blocking and then punching, no advantage, because the first attack is blocked. Then the student learns that the block should not just block, but create an opening for the punch. Then the student learns that the block and the punch are at the same time, clearing the defense while striking through the opening as it is being cleared. Then the student learns that the block is an attack in itself....

There are all kinds of ways to learn from these maxims.... add in the multiple different translations and you get many more things to learn......

Yes, very good. Most karate kata start with a blocking kind of move and almost always performed stepping into a visualized attack, so there’s a clear intent of intercepting.

The Taikyuku katas are very simple looking but deep in essence, the name is same as Taiji(as in taijiquan) with philosophy of yin/yang

 

[opr1945]

I was not intending to start a discussion on striking first. But, rather aa discussion of learning life principles of Karate and applying them. Apparently I pick a bad specific example. sorry.

 

[Same Trick]

I was not intending to start a discussion on striking first. But, rather aa discussion of learning life principles of Karate and applying them. Apparently I pick a bad specific example. sorry.

Our reality is a reality of dualities, the interactions and harmony of opposites, karate is no different since In karate(martial arts) one engage in defense and attack, with experience gradual refinement and understanding of this reality will come, its life experience in dojo format.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I was not intending to start a discussion on striking first. But, rather aa discussion of learning life principles of Karate and applying them. Apparently I pick a bad specific example. sorry.

Your real problem here is the majority of martial artists are unfamiliar with the application of principles outside of the dojo. A lot of martial artists do not practice karate-do, they practice sport karate and are continually thinking about fighting or competition. Look over old threads, read the kind of responses and topics commonly discussed here and you will see the majority of members are influenced by competition fighting, self-defense, technique and style. Even the replies in this thread demonstrate people cannot answer your question as they do not really understand what you are asking of them in the first place. It also shows how far karate-do has strayed from its original intent, especially in cultures where competition is king

 

[opr1945]

Even the replies in this thread demonstrate people cannot answer your question as they do not really understand what you are asking of them in the first place. It also shows how far karate-do has strayed from its original intent, especially in cultures where competition is king

Thank you.

 

[Badhabits]

My experience has been that karate training builds habits which bleed over into other parts of life. You push and push through training- building the habit of not giving up when things get tough.
You spend time in an environment that makes a point of being respectful to your peers. It bleeds over into your work life etc.
You constantly get critiqued, you learn how to take critique without getting defensive.
Training stresses you out, frustrates you at times. You're in a supportive environment that helps you learn to deal with this productively.
Some people react to pain with anger. Again you learn to control and deal with it.
Training takes mental focus. It's a learned skill.
Advancement in karate takes consistent effort. Most things do. Another lesson which transfers to other parts of life.
Karate brings together people from all walks of life, with differing political views, religious views etc. You may not respect their views, but you learn you can still have respect for the human being behind those differing views.
These are all things that transfer to all walks of life......

 

[wab25]

Okay, my error. I only cited the Niju Kun as one example of applying karate principles to life outside the dojo. My limited experience is that students come the dojo and do physical activities then go home, and hopefully continue to practice those same activities.

As an example: #5 Mental attitude is more important than technique. when/how does te student learn to implement this concept?

There are a bunch of different versions of that one as well....

1. Spirit first, technique second.
2. Spirit and mind is more important than technique
3. Spirit comes first, technique second.

Notice the subtle differences in words.... notice the subtle difference in meanings.

When does the student learn this concept? Its found in Tekki Shodan.... the first step, where you step across your right foot.... that is the spirit going first, and then you have the technique following.... <===== totally joking here

But seriously, when does the student learn these things? As mentioned above, many don't. Many don't even know they are there. Each student may decide to embark on that journey... if they do, their journey will be their own.

The best we can do, is to let them know it is there and that it is worth going after. After that, its the student's journey to take or not.

Where does the chambered fist go? I have seen some teach that it goes at the belt, some one fist above the belt, others high up in the arm pit. Most discussions of which is right boils down to which I learned from my master, and the rest of you are wrong. My sensei taught me that the chamber was at the belt. I was at a seminar, with another style of martial arts.... they chambered with the fist high up into the arm pit. They explained that by doing so, it moved the shoulder back, changing the geometry of the chest and thus effecting the posture. When I went back to my dojo, they wanted to know what I learned, I showed them that difference. My sensei showed me then how to accomplish the same things, with the chamber at the belt and suggested that that was how I should have been doing it all along. He showed me how to look at other interpretations, gather the principles taught there and then to find where those principles are in what we were already practicing. This opens up a door, to see that there is much more to what I thought I had known.

How many arguments have you heard, seen, read (see other threads in this forum...) where they argue about whether it is done in front stance or back stance, with the hand here or there and what shape the hand is in.... Most are arguing from a desire to be right, to show the other wrong. Instead, we should use these discussions to learn how to seek and find the deeper, underlying principles. Then find how those are covered in the way that you do it.

The practice of learning to look deeper into the movements we practice is one way to learn to look deeper into everything. Including Niju Kun, or any other esoteric principles. The concept of comparing and contrasting other interpretations of the same thing without looking for a right and wrong is a good part of that skill. But all this is up to the martial artist. All we can do is point the way and hope they quit looking at your finger.

 

[Fungus]

So where does a student learn what the rest of Karate is about, the principles, or how to apply Karate principles in their life?

Is it all independent study?

I suspect so, from the little I know in my short MA journey.

Sometimes it happens that higher instructors makes analogies to principes that are generalized outside the dojo. For example the fighting spirit means to never give up, no matter what life throws at you. It applies both in a fight and in life. I like to think the no first strike, simply means don't seek trouble, don't be the first to start trouble, that does not mean you can't be the first to finish it, if that seems called for. Perhaps the "first strike" is metaphor for initiating a conflict, the first strike might be psychological or mental, like a threat. Then the first fist or first kick is a response.

But I suspect this is "insights" that you may get on your own. It's not something that is often expressed during trainings hour in the dojo. But some of these principles can I think be acquired even without MA. I enjoy this depth of things, but it feels like personal insights of life.

 

[opr1945]

Oh, well................