Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first

[Gerry Seymour]

In all of this nonsensical rambling, two points jump out at me that should be addressed...

As far as I know, the earliest any “karate” was on mainland Japan was around 1917, when Funakoshi made his first trip to Japan to introduce it there.

And there was no “karate” as we know it until 1936, which is when Funakoshi changed the name from “China hand” to “open hand.”

Karate in Japan not having breaking until Oyama brought it from Korea has been said a dizzying amount of times. Let’s suspend reality for a minute and say this is true. That doesn’t mean karate didn’t have breaking at all. Stupid question, but is there any proof no karateka broke anything in Okinawa, where karate actually came from? Karate was heavily influenced by the Chinese which have been said to had breaking long before the Japanese didn’t n this ridiculous thread. Do you really think the Okinawans didn’t see anyone breaking anything during this influential time? Or did the Chinese keep it secret

Not to stereotype a whole group of people, but Okinawan karateka really like to hit things - makiwara and the like. It’s pretty stupid to think they didn’t break anything. They’re not too stupid to figure out breaking things would be another way to determine how strong their techniques were. Same for the pre-Funakoshi Japanese people. And the pre-Oyama people.

One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?

 

[JR 137]

One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?

Well, MAists are smarter than the rest of the people out there, so I guess there’s a chance they knew you can’t win a fight against nonliving objects.

I’m really trying here

 

[JR 137]

One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?

My friends and family around my age broke a ton of stuff. And none of us had MA experience. We also taped GI Joe guys to bottle rockets and other fireworks. Can we claim inventing that? And we put playing cards in our bikes’ spokes too.

 

[Tez3]

We also taped GI Joe guys to bottle rockets and other fireworks.

Our equivalent to GI Joe was 'Action Man, we used to make parachutes for him and drop him from as high as height as we could. Wish we'd kept him and his clothes etc early ones are worth a fortune now. He's been on television recently too.
MoneySuperMarket - Epic Action Man | UK TV Advert Music

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Steven Lee

oh for crying out-loud.....I get it, you have a TKD inferiority complex and need to prove TKD did everything first...who cares, big deal.....I seriously doubt TKD or Karate started breaking......I trained TKD BEFORE it was an Olympic sport...and you know what....we did not give a hoot about breaking boards....and my teacher was a student of General Choi....as Bruce Lee put it...Boards don't hit back.....and it had a lot of things TKD does not seem to do, or care about today.....so whether or not TKD did the triple spinning back flippity jibber kick first does not matter....the majority of TKD today does not do what it did 40 years ago....it does less.....where it comes from is interesting, but where it is at is more important....want to do something productive for TKD....first, stop tilting at windmills and second....bring the stuff back in that use to be there...in close fighting, joint locking and take downs....and kicking and striking in many more places that are not concerned about points and are concerned about real live SD

 

[JR 137]

@Steven Lee

oh for crying out-loud.....I get it, you have a TKD inferiority complex and need to prove TKD did everything first...who cares, big deal.....I seriously doubt TKD or Karate started breaking......I trained TKD BEFORE it was an Olympic sport...and you know what....we did not give a hoot about breaking boards....and my teacher was a student of General Choi....as Bruce Lee put it...Boards don't hit back.....and it had a lot of things TKD does not seem to do, or care about today.....so whether or not TKD did the triple spinning back flippity jibber kick first does not matter....the majority of TKD today does not do what it did 40 years ago....it does less.....where it comes from is interesting, but where it is at is more important....want to do something productive for TKD....first, stop tilting at windmills and second....bring the stuff back in that use to be there...in close fighting, joint locking and take downs....and kicking and striking in many more places that are not concerned about points and are concerned about real live SD

Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.

Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing.

Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.

Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing.

Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.

Likely the same place my daughter went...for a year....I watched in disbelief for a year.....surprisingly enough the owner of that chain of schools did not want to talk to me much after he found out who I trained with and when..... my daughter is now an Aikidoka and loving it

 

[Buka]

Ah, the good old days....

Or went to the doctor...he even brought drugs to your house. I think they send Uber now.

 

[_Simon_]

triple spinning back flippity jibber kick

Hahaha. As soon as my foot heals I'm totally gonna attempt this!

 

[_Simon_]

Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.

Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing.

Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.

Ah yep I was speaking to one of my old Kyokushin instructors early December, and he was saying back in the early days (he loves saying that ) they used to have TKD practitioners visit their dojo to train, mainly for sparring. And this guy being very old school spoke very highly of them. Said they fought really hard, showed alot of spirit, and daaaamn them kicks were good haha.

I love his stories

 

[JR 137]

Likely the same place my daughter went...for a year....I watched in disbelief for a year.....surprisingly enough the owner of that chain of schools did not want to talk to me much after he found out who I trained with and when..... my daughter is now an Aikidoka and loving it

And I’m quite sure she’s significantly better off.

3.14159265359‘s TKD?

 

[JR 137]

Our equivalent to GI Joe was 'Action Man, we used to make parachutes for him and drop him from as high as height as we could. Wish we'd kept him and his clothes etc early ones are worth a fortune now. He's been on television recently too.
MoneySuperMarket - Epic Action Man | UK TV Advert Music

My GI Joe guys would’ve been worth a lot of money if we didn’t blow them up. We did the parachute stuff too. We didn’t climb too high to drop them though; we threw them as high up as we could.

I saw the GI Joe F-16 I had sell for quite a sum a few years back. Too bad I rubbed banded fireworks to it and threw it like a paper airplane to simulate getting shot down too many times. I’m pretty sure everyone else did too, hence why one in practically any condition is quite rare. Our stuff actually looked like it was in a war

Kids just don’t play like we used to anymore. Now I know I’m old after saying that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hahaha. As soon as my foot heals I'm totally gonna attempt this!

Video, man. Video.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea. Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).

True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.

Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.

Something for you to chew on from The Burden of Proof If you understand all on that page good for you. I don't, but the below phrase makes sense to me.

... in cosmologist Martin Rees' maxim, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

You can believe or disbelieve. But so much about MA is lost in the ages and former attempts to raise one's own art or beliefs above another's, I really only care about what I study and learn. I don't much care what art invented something that is useful to me, only that it is useful, and I can learn and apply it.

 

[JR 137]

My biggest question in this whole asinine thread...

What karateka claimed they invented tameshiwari/breaking? Where’s the scholarly research on that one? I haven’t seen Oyama nor anyone else claim they were the first to break anything.