Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first

[Gnarlie]

And I'm telling you, Japan didn't have Breaking. Korea & China had Breaking. Korea seems to be before China in Breaking. It is unreasonable to read every single existing records in the world. We just put in reasonable amounts of efforts then conclude based on it. So far, there's no logical necessity nor reputable reference denying any my historical facts, data, proofs.

Burden of proof means, you are not allowed to say "prove that I didn't see UFO".

So when was the first instance of breaking in Japan. If you can't at least answer that question, you don't have a case, because it exists there now.

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[Steven Lee]

Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim. Also, whatever Japan had or didn't have is irrelevant to Karate's Breaking. It's from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway.

 

[Gnarlie]

Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim.

You think? You think you were told?

Wow. Just wow.

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[Headhunter]

Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.

Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:

"Breaking objects with the hands and feet has probably existed in the eastern martial arts for hundreds of years. In Japan it certainly predated the introduction of karate in the 1920s. William Bankier, the strongman "Apollo", wrote about the edge of the hand blow in his 1905 book "Jiu-Jitsu. What It Really Is", adding that "Some of the Japs who made a study of this sort of thing have been known to actually break very large stones with their bare hand. To such an extent had these men developed the heel or side part of the hand that it almost became as hard as stone." During his military service in France in World War 1, Bob Hoffman, the founder of "Strength and Health" magazine saw an example of breaking in Paris, of all places: "In France during the war, Bob Hoffman told me that he saw a Japanese sidewalk performer actually break slabs of marble with chop blows of his hand. The side of his hand was about half an inch thicker than a normal hand". In 1940 the "Japanese American Courier" reported that "Marking its 34th anniversary the Tacoma (judo) dojo will hold its annual tournament Sunday afternoon at the Buddhist Church auditorium . . . Over 40 black belts are listed for action. An additional feature on the programme will be Masato Tamura's 'rock breaking' demonstration via the ancient Japanese art of "kiai jutsu". He will also oppose a quintet of picked black belts". Tamura was a well known judoka who had got his third dan during Jigoro Kano's visit to America in 1938. In none of these accounts, incidentally, is there any mention of karate."

Mas Oyama in America, by Graham Noble

400 years ago, there were many history books all recording the same event of Korean Hand Breaking a large stone as big as a Soban table. https://i.imgur.com/d3vM6SR.png

In 1692's Korea, Ikmyung Yang was also recorded to break stone by hand strike using Yongryuk. It also mentioned that Breaking/Tameshiwari is a set of games with similar nature. https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

Yong means stacking speed & power. Korean strike techniques also showed shoulder-push for hand strike. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to the modern curriculum of Karate; Mas Oyama added this shoulder-push & Yong speed to Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking. It's not from boxing cause Mas Oyama was a Korean who was familiar with Korean techniques. Also, Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk is pronounced like that in Japanese) was popular in Japan at the era.

In 1934's Korea, a reputable newspaper also recorded Korean Kihapsul breaking Yeonwa (soft shingles, roof tiles) with fist. It also mentioned Taoist Yoga (chejo).

https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

To summarize, Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari. They got it from Korean Kiaijutsu & Korean Mas Oyama (Choi). They also adopted shoulder-push & Yong speed for hard frontal strike from Korea.

At the end of the day...does it matter?

 

[Gnarlie]

At the end of the day...does it matter?

It does if you have an agenda.

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[Steven Lee]

I don't have to do research beyond reasonable doubts, reasonable efforts. Also, such is an irrelevant information anyway cause Karate's Breaking today has nothing to do with such imitation not a Japanese art, not connected to Karate's Breaking. The main focus is about Kiaijutsu & Mas Oyama. I don't need to do research beyond that scope.

 

[Steven Lee]

Yeah, I don't want to lose or share any cultural wealth of Korea. It matters to me, to my background (Korea) that I feel. It matters. Truth is important. I just want to portrait them quibbling over obvious historical facts & proofs that cannot be denied nor disproved by their lack of logical necessity nor reputable reference against such. Whatever recent reference they talk about, the question is whether the source is reputable, whether the reference is reputable. And they don't have any reputable reference in the history fields.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim. Also, whatever Japan had or didn't have is irrelevant to Karate's Breaking. It's from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway.

I've never heard anyone claim any country was the progenitor of breaking before now. If you have, I think you've inflated the occurrence, since most folks will start from the default position that it probably occurred everywhere. I broke sticks as a kid, without anyone ever showing me that as a thing to do. I'm pretty sure kids (and adults) in every country that has ever existed have done something similar. And that seems a likely path to using it as a tool in martial arts training.

To claim Japan's breaking comes from Korea, you'd have to first show how that easy, plausible explanation above isn't very likely.

 

[Steven Lee]

Korea didn't invent Breaking. The culture was common like Graham Noble illustrated. Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe. But not in Japan. And Japan didn't invent Breaking nor copied it from China. They got it from Mas Oyama (introduced Tameshiwari/Breaking to Karate's curriculum) & Kiaijutsu, including hard frontal hitting technique (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed). Other sports doing Breaking today is not from copying Karate; it's historical & traditional.

I Think I'm done in this website for good. I hope my writings touched many objective people & historians.

 

[pdg]

Korea didn't invent Breaking. The culture was common like Graham Noble illustrated. Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe. But not in Japan. And Japan didn't invent Breaking nor copied it from China. They got it from Mas Oyama (introduced Tameshiwari/Breaking to Karate's curriculum) & Kiaijutsu, including hard frontal hitting technique (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed). Other sports doing Breaking today is not from copying Karate; it's historical & traditional.

I Think I'm done in this website for good. I hope my writings touched many objective people & historians.

Now that's a flounce if ever I saw one.

 

[Gnarlie]

Now that's a flounce if ever I saw one.

...

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[Gnarlie]

Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar.

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[pdg]

Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar.

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Well that's just a subjective quibble which doesn't address irrefutable perfect data.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And they don't have any reputable reference in the history fields.

This is a vague statement (Who are "they"?) and almost certainly indefensible ("don't have any").

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar.

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See, you learn better than I do. I said I wouldn't be able to learn anything.

 

[Tez3]

Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe.

What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!

 

[CB Jones]

When it comes down to who invented breaking........

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!

Mystery solved.

 

[pdg]

What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!

We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.

There ya go.