Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first

[JowGaWolf]

Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.

Not even sure this is even relevant to learning a martial arts. People train and use martial arts every day and none of it revolves around who invented Breaking. Which from what I was told was created in NewYork , but there's a theory that breaking is much older than that.

There's a lot of debate out there as to just who created breaking

But it probably didn't come from Korea.

The purpose of this is to highlight that it really doesn't matter who invented "Breaking" This picture is said to be of an old Kung Master demonstrating iron palm. I'm pretty sure he's not the first person to demonstrate that he could break something with his hand. Considering that people were breaking jaws and facial bones in fighting, it would only seem the natural tendency to test one's fist durability by breaking something with their fist or hand.

Who "invented" breaking is completely insignificant. And topics like this pretty much are beginning to highlight your extreme dislike of Karate. If you really dislike karate that much then just come out and say it. If you like Korean martial arts then just say you like that, without having to try to make statements about systems that you don't like.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think it's utterly illogical to state that one particular region (or worse, one art) has the unequivocal right to claim that it invented breaking stuff as a show of strength or even a competitive activity.

Apes break stuff to intimidate potential opponents - it's very safe to assume they didn't get it from karate either...

Gorillas invented all martial arts. Leaping attacks, sprawls, shoots, punches. drop kicks. Hopefully this will end any confusion on who create what and when lol.

But bears were the first to use the staff

 

[JowGaWolf]

Graham Noble didn't present the topic here. You did, so people will debate your presentation.

lol. not me. This one topic gets 5 free tickets on the Silly Train, Destination what difference does it make.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.

Good thing you told me this. I always wanted to know who invented carrying. I bet the ants are going to be pissed off.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At the end of the day...does it matter?

lol. not one bit.

 

[pdg]

Good thing you told me this. I always wanted to know who invented carrying. I bet the ants are going to be pissed off.

That's a colour photograph - it's obviously modern imagination with bias and agenda.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!

Chinese have a long history of not breaking stuff.
Recommend searching youtube for Shaolin Kung Fu: Iron testicles. (must see) I just can't post it here lol.

So I'll post this one video instead. These guys couldn't bust a grape

 

[Tez3]

Those gorillas were seriously scary! Interesting though in the way they fought.

 

[Steven Lee]

The point was that Karate's Breaking came from Korea, Mas Oyama (Choi), Kiaijutsu (Kihapsul/Charyuk). Both the game concept & also the hitting technique different from Karate came from Korea. Breaking's hand strike pushes shoulder forward while stacking (Yong) speed & power in the hand instead of exploding at the start like Karate with no power left at the moment of impact. It's just like the Muyedobotongji Gwonbub & Gyuksul pictures I showed. Also, Ikmyung Yang's Breaking mentions using Yongryuk (stacking speed, power in motion). Also, Breaking was self-created by trial & error, nothing to do with martial art nor Kung Fu, has more to do with Qiqong/Kooksundo. Also, Subak had straight slap, frontal Knife Hand strike, punch anyway.

 

[pdg]

instead of exploding at the start like Karate with no power left at the moment of impact.

That statement, all by itself, is proof that you know very very little about karate (in any of it's multiple forms).

 

[Steven Lee]

No. Original Karate punch is like Kung Fu. It explodes at the start of the punch. Even today, they emphasize implosion. Breaking is the opposite. It moves from slow to fast, accelerating to have the maximum power & speed at the end, just like Korean Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking using Yong (stacking speed, power). Also, shoulder-push is important for hand strike for that extra mass & strength. You can see Mas Oyama's Breaking videos. His hand moves from slow to fast. Here's also my Breaking video, breaking a natural stone. Slow to fast, acceleration. I didn't work out much back then.

In any case, it's a fact perfect & sure enough that Karate's Breaking came from Korean Kiaijutsu & Mas Oyama (Choi). And Oyama was exposed to Korean techniques since he was a Korean & also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his book.

 

[DaveB]

Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.

Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:

"Breaking objects with the hands and feet has probably existed in the eastern martial arts for hundreds of years. In Japan it certainly predated the introduction of karate in the 1920s. William Bankier, the strongman "Apollo", wrote about the edge of the hand blow in his 1905 book "Jiu-Jitsu. What It Really Is", adding that "Some of the Japs who made a study of this sort of thing have been known to actually break very large stones with their bare hand. To such an extent had these men developed the heel or side part of the hand that it almost became as hard as stone." During his military service in France in World War 1, Bob Hoffman, the founder of "Strength and Health" magazine saw an example of breaking in Paris, of all places: "In France during the war, Bob Hoffman told me that he saw a Japanese sidewalk performer actually break slabs of marble with chop blows of his hand. The side of his hand was about half an inch thicker than a normal hand". In 1940 the "Japanese American Courier" reported that "Marking its 34th anniversary the Tacoma (judo) dojo will hold its annual tournament Sunday afternoon at the Buddhist Church auditorium . . . Over 40 black belts are listed for action. An additional feature on the programme will be Masato Tamura's 'rock breaking' demonstration via the ancient Japanese art of "kiai jutsu". He will also oppose a quintet of picked black belts". Tamura was a well known judoka who had got his third dan during Jigoro Kano's visit to America in 1938. In none of these accounts, incidentally, is there any mention of karate."

Mas Oyama in America, by Graham Noble

400 years ago, there were many history books all recording the same event of Korean Hand Breaking a large stone as big as a Soban table. https://i.imgur.com/d3vM6SR.png

In 1692's Korea, Ikmyung Yang was also recorded to break stone by hand strike using Yongryuk. It also mentioned that Breaking/Tameshiwari is a set of games with similar nature. https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

Yong means stacking speed & power. Korean strike techniques also showed shoulder-push for hand strike. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to the modern curriculum of Karate; Mas Oyama added this shoulder-push & Yong speed to Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking. It's not from boxing cause Mas Oyama was a Korean who was familiar with Korean techniques. Also, Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk is pronounced like that in Japanese) was popular in Japan at the era.

In 1934's Korea, a reputable newspaper also recorded Korean Kihapsul breaking Yeonwa (soft shingles, roof tiles) with fist. It also mentioned Taoist Yoga (chejo).

https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

To summarize, Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari. They got it from Korean Kiaijutsu & Korean Mas Oyama (Choi). They also adopted shoulder-push & Yong speed for hard frontal strike from Korea.

Who cares?

 

[Steven Lee]

I feel really alone & forced upon me things I don't have to do nor want to do on so many things (including personal human rights but also being forced bullshits on sports history). Truth matters. I don't care if someone tells me not to care about the truth. Truth matters in general. Truth matters to me, especially if my label, background (Korea) is tainted, harmed on any loss or profit issues in any way.

 

[Gnarlie]

I feel really alone & forced upon me things I don't have to do nor want to do on so many things (including personal human rights but also being forced bullshits on sports history). Truth matters. I don't care if someone tells me not to care about the truth. Truth matters in general. Truth matters to me, especially if my label, background (Korea) is tainted, harmed on any loss or profit issues in any way.

You're not doing Korea any favours here...

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[Steven Lee]

I'm not trying to give profits to Korea. I'm not trying to do anyone a favor. It is just that, it's unacceptable to tolerate any wrongful harms, losses on anything of mine or anything of my background (Korea). I just don't want to lose or share anything of mine or Korea's. I am being very decent here, especially after everything that has been going on.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not trying to give profits to Korea. I'm not trying to do anyone a favor. It is just that, it's unacceptable to tolerate any wrongful harms, losses on anything of mine or anything of my background (Korea). I just don't want to lose or share anything of mine or Korea's. I am being very decent here, especially after everything that has been going on.

You are demonstrating a poor research methodology, that I hope is unique to you and not a Korean thing. That would be damaging.

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[Steven Lee]

I showed proofs, I showed conclusion inferred directly from reading out the proofs (writings & pictures). That's a pretty standard academic system. All historians do it that way, including the use of pictures as proofs.

 

[jks9199]

@Steven Lee

You seem to be rather preoccupied with showing that various martial arts concepts or practices originated in Korea...

Would you perhaps know an older, most definitely Korean gentleman fond of kimonos and soap operas? He's from a small fishing town...

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[Steven Lee]

Not unless he has a pretty Korean or Caucasian daughter. Also, I'm not into Japanese stuffs. Especially because my life has been hard, I'm not fond of Japan. I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc). I don't want to do anything I don't have to do nor want to do. My life is hard because people with their own greed, agenda, goals force their intentions onto me. They pretend as if I have to allow them to push me to a certain degree when I don't want to let them do anything. My life is messed up; I feel alone; I'm tired of everything including but not limited to sports history nonsense.

I think I'm done with this website. Hope my proofs, conclusions, feelings made connection to many scholars & objective people. My living condition right now doesn't allow me much (nor consistent) computer time anyway. This website is too taxing to me.

 

[pdg]

Not unless he has a pretty Korean or Caucasian daughter. Also, I'm not into Japanese stuffs. Especially because my life has been hard, I'm not fond of Japan. I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc). I don't want to do anything I don't have to do nor want to do. My life is hard because people with their own greed, agenda, goals force their intentions onto me. They pretend as if I have to allow them to push me to a certain degree when I don't want to let them do anything. My life is messed up; I feel alone; I'm tired of everything including but not limited to sports history nonsense.

You see (well, you don't see, which is the problem) this is where your bias comes from.

You don't want anything Japanese to 'taint' your life.

That's entirely your choice, but stop seeking validation for your biased inferences from people who don't share your prejudice.

I think I'm done with this website. Hope my proofs, conclusions, feelings made connection to many scholars & objective people. My living condition right now doesn't allow me much (nor consistent) computer time anyway. This website is too taxing to me.

Of course it's taxing, because nobody here is likely to roll over and comply without question.

We're not going to just agree with a couple of unsubstantiated documents, especially when contradictory translations have been offered.