Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
To Twendkata: :asian: :mst:
best styles for self defense
- Thread starter drummingman
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Iron Leopard
Green Belt
I'm biased of course but I really believe that Kempo andy style is the best for street self defense and of kempo, SKK is the best! Make sure that your instructor teaches some ground fighting as well!
twendkata71
Black Belt
Oh yes Kempo/ or kenpo is very effective, but also not an overnight course. Very effective, but you can't really master self defense in a 6 week course. The current trend now is to do the MMA. The problem with that is if you watch these MMA fighters they are good, but it takes them forever to get the technique initiated and then it takes them longer to finish. On the street you don't have time to tie up with the assailant on the ground, especially if he is not alone, which is usually the case.
I believe that is was the karate master Matsumura that stated "karate is for fighting four or more opponents, not one". I am not %100 word for word on that quote, but it is something to that effect. I will look it up. Originally karate was only designed for life and death situations, the Ancient Okinawans didn't have time for the frevolity of recreational karate(Unchinadi/Te) it was for survival and personally development. There was no sport. Traditional karate/ or Martial arts from China,Okinawa,Japan and Korea were developed for this and if you find the right sensei, sifu, kwanjanim,etc. you will find your effective self defense. You get out what you put into karate,kenpo, gong fu,jujitsu,taekwondo,tangsoodo,etc.
In my opinion, the style that fits your body and your needs as a person is the best style for self defense. No matter where it comes from, I am just biased towards the Japanese and Okinawan ones. Good luck on your search, or journey.
I believe that is was the karate master Matsumura that stated "karate is for fighting four or more opponents, not one". I am not %100 word for word on that quote, but it is something to that effect. I will look it up. Originally karate was only designed for life and death situations, the Ancient Okinawans didn't have time for the frevolity of recreational karate(Unchinadi/Te) it was for survival and personally development. There was no sport. Traditional karate/ or Martial arts from China,Okinawa,Japan and Korea were developed for this and if you find the right sensei, sifu, kwanjanim,etc. you will find your effective self defense. You get out what you put into karate,kenpo, gong fu,jujitsu,taekwondo,tangsoodo,etc.
In my opinion, the style that fits your body and your needs as a person is the best style for self defense. No matter where it comes from, I am just biased towards the Japanese and Okinawan ones. Good luck on your search, or journey.
Twendkata's point here is really at the heart of the answer to your question, drummingman; you really need to take it seriously and think about your training and choice of a MA for self-defense in these terms. As a number of us have been telling you, any TMA has very effective self defense applications. But you have to train it that way. And in order to train it, you have to really like it. People have all kinds of reasons—physical, aesthetic, philosophical—for preferring one kind of MA over another; you have to try a few and see what inspires you. No matter how effective it is, you won't train it if you don't really like it. Once you find an art you like, you must make sure that the school emphasizes the self-defense aspect of it. Don't assume they do; ask them point blank how much emphasis they place on close-quarter defensive application of the art.
And that's really all anyone can tell you, I think. The rest is up to you...
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Aah the american way, get a quick fix to everything. There is no quick fix for self defense or even sport ma for that matter. But competitions have rules and the street has none. I will take my years of karate over any quick fix.
You should look at the training methods rather than the particular style. It is one of the traits of karate today to have a great deal of variation within what is nominally a cohesive system, and the practices vary widely between schools in the same system.
Things you should look for:
1. Kata is broken down into steps and used for actual teaching, rather than as an exercise or demonstration.
2. Sparring is frequent and high levels of contact is tolerated.
3. The students are experianced. Karate dojos frequently have a high turnover rate, and you want a group where there are some experianced people.
4. The instructor is respectful to his or her students and not an authoritarian jerk. (The strong connection between the Japanese military and Japanese karate prior to WWII has influenced karate culture... don't stick around to work with a pompous self-important prick with a fancy belt who has taken the culture of discipline and respect as a carte blanche to treat people like crap.) If you are wondering why the teacher's personality is related to self defense, realize that you won't get much help from someone who prides himself on his ability to demean others.
5. Not much point sparring. Some karate schools no longer teach much of anything but point sparring, and this is of little value for self defense.
A word on "sport karate" - the term can refer to either point sparring sport karate, as many shotokan dojos have become, or full contact kickboxing sport karate, like kyokushin, enshin, ashihara and others. The two are entirely different sports and the criticisms of either one do not apply to the other. The latter has some very good self defense. The kyokushin, ashihara and enshin systems have a strong reputation for integrity as well, so they should not be ruled out as pointless sport.
Agreed.
Realize that this is good matchmaking, not inability. Two fighters of similar ability will ussually have to work for a time to attain supremacy. Against a lesser fighter, fights can end very quickly.
I remember something to that effect as well.
Hmm. That doesn't seem to accord with what I have heard of history. Tegumi (a sumo-like grappling competition) was a frequent source of competition among karateka going back. Full out fights for status were not uncommon on Okinawa either, although I don't think they ever reached the same frequency as in Meiji Japan or nineteeth century China.
matt.m
Senior Master
I disagree with the owning of the gun statement. I am a former Marine with combat experience who shot expert in rifle and pistol. So, the best self defense is awareness. Period. Those who are good are also confident. These are the least likely to ever get into a fight. I have not been in a fight since I was in the Marine Corps. I have been out 10 yrs. I have had multiple chances but didn't. Not out of cowardice, but maturity and control.
If you feel you need a gun for self defense then you need to do two things: 1. change where you hang out
2. move
I was in D.C. once with some buds. Someone in traffic acted like they were going to shoot us. We showed our Marine Corps memoribillia and an M-16 magazine. They took off like no ones business. I can't tell you how many times I had the opportunity to fight at bars, dance clubs etc. I found something better to do.
I honestly believe that fighting is stupid and that stupid people fight. However, many people defend themselves. I have 5 cane in my house and 2 pair of escrima, along with bat. That is all I feel I need.
i have to agree with the other people on this thread. It isn't the style or type it is the instructor and your team/class mates. The last place you want to go to is the ground in a street fight. so pickingan art that primarily trains on the ground would be a waste on time. BJJ is a beautiful art, and does have awsome takedowns, locks, and chokes, but with a good instructor, good sparing parnter, some sprawl and brawl tec's, you will be fine without it.
You will find in your search that some instrcutors have never been in a street fight or have ahd close to none exposure to non- strutured sparring in the lifetime. stay away from those schools. you don't need a warrior school either but, someplace in the middle. Pick an instructor who teaches based on reality vs. text book tec's, if your soul interst is self defense.
You will find in your search that some instrcutors have never been in a street fight or have ahd close to none exposure to non- strutured sparring in the lifetime. stay away from those schools. you don't need a warrior school either but, someplace in the middle. Pick an instructor who teaches based on reality vs. text book tec's, if your soul interst is self defense.
OP
OP
drummingman
Blue Belt
well being a beginner how can i know for sure that what is taught at a school is the right thing? i am looking for real self defense and from what i have seen karate can provide that but i don't know how to tell if the head teacher is being stright up with me if he tells me that his school is all about real self defense.im sure there are a lot of teachers that will say anything to get someone to sign up and since i really won't know what im doing to start with he could be teaching me junk and i would not really know.some stuff im sure would be obvious that its junk but other stuff im not so sure.
Check the lineage of the instructor. Who did s/he learn from? Who did they learn from? What are the reputations of the people?
Don't sign a contract. No one knows exactly what they are getting in to on day one. Don't lock yourself in to something until you are sure.
Ask the potential instructor some direct questions. How has the art changed from the way the elders have done it? Many instructors will tell you...including instructors that have changed what they did.
Ask the fellow students. How long have they been training there? Does it make sense to you? What are the yudansha like? Have they earned their rank at a ridiculously early age or in a staggeringly short amount of time...or has it taken years of effort and dedication?
How do the teacher and the students interact with you? Everything is phenomenally difficult in the beginning...but how are you doing once you get the feel of things? Do you find that you can learn under the instructor and in the environment?
searcher
Senior Master
This is something I could not stress enough and I thank Carol Kaur for making that point. If they are wanting you to sign a contract I have always felt this is a red flag. I hate contracts and will never use them.
On the context of your orginal post. You are going to be the one that willultimately decide how self-defense oriented you training will be. I have some very good friends that train in schools that I consider to be shady, as it pertains to the instructor, but they are very good at "street defense." You can make something good out of something bad if you work hard enough. Once you have the basics down and you are learning the material they have to offer, you can start focusing on what you want to get out of the training. Most schools can at least give you the basics and can help you refine them. Big deal if somebody thinks the school is a joke, you can always go somewhere else to train. It is not like you have to make a life decision. I think that in today's society we are getting so scared of being ripped off that we are not allowing ourselves to live our own lives. Don't be held back by this fear. Like I already said, you can always change schools.
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Contracts are ok depending on how they are worded. I personally give a trial period and then the contract. The contract I use is 3 months pay month by month.
twendkata71
Black Belt
Good post carol, yes, check the lineage, do some research on line and ask questions that the instructor should know if legitimate. Many times you can call their instructor directly to get a background on them. But, in some cases, the break between the instructor and their instructor was so bad that any information from the former instructor may not be valid. Professional jealously can play a part. When my teacher left his teacher in Japan, his teacher was so enraged that he wiped records of his certification out of the organization. I have seen the certificates with the Japanese Master's name signed and stamp on it. Usually when you see them demonstrate their skills,you will get a feel if they are for real. You will also get positive feedback from their students.
I now only teach to small groups, that way I know I have dedicated students, and I have the time to focus on each student personally. I feel that I owe it to them to give the best instruction, because they have given me their trust and dedication. This is an important relationship between instructor and student. A good sensei will give time to each student, not just see them as another face and paycheck in their school. It also an awsome responsibilty for the student. The instructor is trusting that the student will not misuse the knowledge that he is imparting.
I now only teach to small groups, that way I know I have dedicated students, and I have the time to focus on each student personally. I feel that I owe it to them to give the best instruction, because they have given me their trust and dedication. This is an important relationship between instructor and student. A good sensei will give time to each student, not just see them as another face and paycheck in their school. It also an awsome responsibilty for the student. The instructor is trusting that the student will not misuse the knowledge that he is imparting.
Cirdan
Senior Master
I agree. I have trained at very respectable clubs that use contracts.
When I first started martial arts the only thing on my mind was self-defense. The class that I joined at the time didn't have a problem with that, as they didn't go to competitions,but as time went on I found that I liked doing the sparring.
i have since then moved away from that area and in the area where i am living now i do shotokan karate, we do competitions through this club, but I try to look at them as training experience, because if you get into a fight on the street, the person you are facing isn't going to be your sparring partner (more than likely). Therefore, you need to go against people you haven't faught before and learn to adapt. As others have said, self-defense is a by-product.
I also do some jujutsu so that I also have some experience in on the ground grappling, so it is also benefitial (sorry can't spell), at least in my opinion, to do different types of martial arts, because they each teach something worth while.
good luck
^_^
i have since then moved away from that area and in the area where i am living now i do shotokan karate, we do competitions through this club, but I try to look at them as training experience, because if you get into a fight on the street, the person you are facing isn't going to be your sparring partner (more than likely). Therefore, you need to go against people you haven't faught before and learn to adapt. As others have said, self-defense is a by-product.
I also do some jujutsu so that I also have some experience in on the ground grappling, so it is also benefitial (sorry can't spell), at least in my opinion, to do different types of martial arts, because they each teach something worth while.
good luck
^_^
Callandor
Green Belt
Like what the others said, it's not the style but the training method employed (by the instructor). For instance, Shotokan can use a sport oriented training method which disregards techniques not allowed in the tournament rules. But it can also use a training method which develops the full spectrum of techniques for self defence including those which are illegal in competition. In this case, what made shotokan sport karate is the training method used not the fact that it's an inherently sport only style.
To Illustrate further the importance of training method as compared to a specific ma style, take a reverse punch, front and side kicks, and basic blocks. If you use a training method which enables you to perfect those techniques to the point that you can execute them with destructive power and blinding speed, I believe that you will be more than able to defend yourself properly (assuming no weapons are used by the assailant). And since the above techniques are present in almost all striking oriented tma, style is not an issue. What enabled you to defend yourself was the training method, not the style.
To Illustrate further the importance of training method as compared to a specific ma style, take a reverse punch, front and side kicks, and basic blocks. If you use a training method which enables you to perfect those techniques to the point that you can execute them with destructive power and blinding speed, I believe that you will be more than able to defend yourself properly (assuming no weapons are used by the assailant). And since the above techniques are present in almost all striking oriented tma, style is not an issue. What enabled you to defend yourself was the training method, not the style.
Any style of Karate can be good for self-defense. However, the style itself isn't going to be the sole determinant, as to whether training at a particular dojo is going to meet your needs.
I know of many Shotokan Karate schools whose teachings would certainly put their students in better positions in a street fight, than say, the full contact schools would, and many Shotokan schools whose teachings are unsuitable for that purpose.
There are many good Shotokan schools, and many bad ones, too. You just have to look carefully, and take some time to talk with the teachers, students, etc. In the end, it's up to you to make an informed decision based on what you see.
I have no qualms about contracts, provided that you aren't forced to sign a long-term contract from day one. If they let you sign a shorter term contract as a trial period, then that's fine by me.
I know of many Shotokan Karate schools whose teachings would certainly put their students in better positions in a street fight, than say, the full contact schools would, and many Shotokan schools whose teachings are unsuitable for that purpose.
There are many good Shotokan schools, and many bad ones, too. You just have to look carefully, and take some time to talk with the teachers, students, etc. In the end, it's up to you to make an informed decision based on what you see.
I have no qualms about contracts, provided that you aren't forced to sign a long-term contract from day one. If they let you sign a shorter term contract as a trial period, then that's fine by me.
chinto
Senior Master
all styles of Karate are decended from the Okinawan styles, and they ere designed for self defence. they are very efficent in this respect and that is why they have survived and continued to be tought for that. But, like any skill or art it does take time to learn the skills and become some one who can aply the skill at need.
