Judges back schools’ Confederate flag ban

[Big Don]

The answer is this: The Rainbow flag doesn't mean that violence is imminent...certainty not from those flying it. The concern in this case was that the Confederate flag either indicated that violence was forthcoming from those flying it, or incited those seeing it to violence.

You don't often hear about armed groups of homosexuals attacking people under the rainbow flag. But look here for what comes to my mind when I read a discussion like this.

A bigger load of crap than I've seen posted in a long time. According to your post, anyone flying a rainbow flag is peace loving and harmless, and anyone flying a Confederate flag a dangerous loon. Two prejudiced statements, one low price.

 

[KenpoTex]

The Supreme Court declared the foundation of the Confederacy as treason against the US in 1874. Sprott vs. US. No individual could or would be prosecuted however due to the pardon of 1868.

More generally, treason is defined in part in Article 3 Section 3 as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them...". Part of the United States levied war against the other part, apart from any other arguments, leaving the case for treason easy to make.

Negatory...The war was fought between two sovereign nations. The states did not band together in order to overthrow the government (which, depending on the outcome may or may not have been considered treason). They each seceded individually and formed the Confederate States of America. The C.S.A. only resorted to violence when Lincoln tried to resupply a fort on southern soil that he had previously agreed to relinquish.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I never said you were offended by either flag. I'm not sure I should accept your judgment of my emotional state. Do you even know what point I am making? After all, you thought I was saying all Southerners were gay.

You don't have to accept my judgment. As of right now citizens of the US still have a few rights left....But who knows what the future holds? At the rate we're going it could be quite different years from now . Then what will you do?

When you set a precedent for one group, it will apply to all groups in similar fashion; regardless of your personal opinion of the matter. That's the point I think you're missing.

How do you support your claim that the Confederate flag is a flag of treason? What exactly was treasonous about the actions of the southern states?

I guess it's treasonous to excercise your rights. Wait a minute...what rights? We don't need no stinkin' rights!

The Supreme Court declared the foundation of the Confederacy as treason against the US in 1874. Sprott vs. US. No individual could or would be prosecuted however due to the pardon of 1868.

More generally, treason is defined in part in Article 3 Section 3 as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them...". Part of the United States levied war against the other part, apart from any other arguments, leaving the case for treason easy to make.

Declared it AFTER the fact, that doesn't mean that what the Southern States did at the time they did it was treason. To the victors go the spoils, so to speak.

...and thus continued the slow death of independant state's rights...sigh.

It's actually kind of a slap in the face to even call our country the "United" states any more. Especially when they were forced together akin to the way the Soviet Union of Socialist Republics were forced to stay together.

Sure, the same people that think two gay lovers holding hands while they walk down the street is "flaunting their lifestyle". I am not obligated to take the feelings of bigots as particularly noteworthy. Even if it was "in your face confrontation" however, it would still not rise to the level of displaying the flags of the Confederacy.



It symbolizes the Confederacy, that is without doubt. The same Confederacy that went to war in order to preserve their "peculiar institution." That is quite clear, as the historical record indicates. Don't make me post more documents...



Ham sandwiches are offensive to some people. Do you think they really should be banned? Of course you don't. So then the really interesting question to me is why you think gay people and traitorous slave holders are equivalent.

So if they take a differing view from yours that makes them a bigot?

That's your opinion and others are no more obligated to take yours as "noteworthy" as you are of thiers. However, if you expect them to do so you should at least extend to them the same respect; even if you think it's wrong. Otherwise, no compromise would ever be reached in any situation regardless of what the subject is.

Just as you think banning ham sandwiches is ridiculous, if enough people banned together to ban them (ham is pork after all, so it's not that far fetched....pork is typically banned in many Muslim nations) it could happen. Then what? I guess we'll have to eat p-nut butter. LOL

Forcing morality on people doesn't work. It only begets more negative results. If no one is risking physical harm, financial hardship, etc as a result of anothers actions (like flying a flag, or holding hands) then let it go.

The only valid point made is that by flying this "symbol" it resulted in fights. That would be a valid argument, but in the same vein...the rainbow flag, regardless of what it means to YOU, has resulted in the same. So, I digress....if you ban one...you have to ban the other.

The Supreme Court didn't think so in 1874...



They resupplied a fort. Certainly, construing that as an "invasion" would require quite a bit of convincing. What doesn't require convincing though is that the South fired the first shots. From the beginning then, your thesis faces an uphill battle.

Suppling it with arms and not leaving is an act of war. If Mexico started shipping guns and tanks to all the illegals in the U.S. I suppose you'd just let that go.

The answer is this: The Rainbow flag doesn't mean that violence is imminent...certainty not from those flying it. The concern in this case was that the Confederate flag either indicated that violence was forthcoming from those flying it, or incited those seeing it to violence.

You don't often hear about armed groups of homosexuals attacking people under the rainbow flag. But look here for what comes to my mind when I read a discussion like this.

Again, that's what it means to YOU. Is it that difficult to be open minded enough to admit that it may not mean the same thing to others? Just playing Devil's Advocate.

I don't have a problem with the flag, I do have a problem with the guy in the sheet though. Especially since, if it weren't for him we may not even be having this discussion. LOL

Do you think the Confederate Flag on a bumper sticker has the same affect as one being carried by a dude in a sheet?

A bigger load of crap than I've seen posted in a long time. According to your post, anyone flying a rainbow flag is peace loving and harmless, and anyone flying a Confederate flag a dangerous loon. Two prejudiced statements, one low price.

It appears that some feel one prejudice is justified and one is not.

big·ot

[big-uh

t]
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


hmmmmm.....

Negatory...The war was fought between two sovereign nations. The states did not band together in order to overthrow the government (which, depending on the outcome may or may not have been considered treason). They each seceded individually and formed the Confederate States of America. The C.S.A. only resorted to violence when Lincoln tried to resupply a fort on southern soil that he had previously agreed to relinquish.

I don't think some get the concept of the states being soveriegn at one time. If we can't get past the whole "Evil South" mentality there's no hope in actually having an intelligent discussion over the actual facts and history leading up to and after the Civil War.

 

[Big Don]

So if they take a differing view from yours that makes them a bigot?

Well, duh, where have you been?

Just as you think banning ham sandwiches is ridiculous, if enough people banned together to ban them (ham is pork after all, so it's not that far fetched....pork is typically banned in many Muslim nations) it could happen. Then what? I guess we'll have to eat p-nut butter. LOL

Remember the grocery store employees who were refusing to do ring up pork products (and shouting those who suggested they either do the job they were hired for, or get other jobs, down as bigots?)

The only valid point made is that by flying this "symbol" it resulted in fights. That would be a valid argument, but in the same vein...the rainbow flag, regardless of what it means to YOU, has resulted in the same. So, I digress....if you ban one...you have to ban the other.

Which brings us to the famous Slippery Slope, where do we stop banning things? There is NO right NOT to be offended!

Suppling it with arms and not leaving is an act of war. If Mexico started shipping guns and tanks to all the illegals in the U.S. I suppose you'd just let that go.

Are you sure they wouldn't, they ignore and excuse the crime of illegal immigration and denounce raids that round up people in the country as racist?

Again, that's what it means to YOU. Is it that difficult to be open minded enough to admit that it may not mean the same thing to others? Just playing Devil's Advocate.

Oh, but your rights and opinions are not important, if you don't agree. In fact if you don't vote ("Early and often" to quote Al Capone) for Obama you are a racist. So, the 18 Million people who voted for Hillary Clinton in the primaries, all racists

Do you think the Confederate Flag on a bumper sticker has the same affect as one being carried by a dude in a sheet?



It appears that some feel one prejudice is justified and one is not.

big·ot

[big-uh

t]
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


hmmmmm.....

Don't state facts, you'll just confuse them.

I don't think some get the concept of the states being soveriegn at one time. If we can't get past the whole "Evil South" mentality there's no hope in actually having an intelligent discussion over the actual facts and history leading up to and after the Civil War.

 

[arnisador]

It's actually kind of a slap in the face to even call our country the "United" states any more. Especially when they were forced together akin to the way the Soviet Union of Socialist Republics were forced to stay together.

Honestly, a statement like this concerns me.

if you ban one...you have to ban the other.[...]Again, that's what it means to YOU. Is it that difficult to be open minded enough to admit that it may not mean the same thing to others?

This is why we have judges, who consider the facts and render a decision. No judge has ruled that the Rainbow flag is a problem, but judges have held that the Confederate flag may be. There is a difference.

I don't think some get the concept of the states being soveriegn at one time. If we can't get past the whole "Evil South" mentality there's no hope in actually having an intelligent discussion over the actual facts and history leading up to and after the Civil War.

Fair enough. But the subject is the flag's use in high schools in 2008, not the origins of the Civil War.

 

[Big Don]

Honestly, a statement like this concerns me.

Really? I find this much more troubling:

The answer is this: The Rainbow flag doesn't mean that violence is imminent...certainty not from those flying it. The concern in this case was that the Confederate flag either indicated that violence was forthcoming from those flying it, or incited those seeing it to violence.

But, that's just me.

This is why we have judges, who consider the facts and render a decision. No judge has ruled that the Rainbow flag is a problem, but judges have held that the Confederate flag may be. There is a difference.

Yep, judges pandering to people like you.

Fair enough. But the subject is the flag's use in high schools in 2008, not the origins of the Civil War.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

This is why we have judges, who consider the facts and render a decision. No judge has ruled that the Rainbow flag is a problem, but judges have held that the Confederate flag may be. There is a difference.

You mean the same people who are answerable to no one are allowed to dictate what political speech is acceptable?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Honestly, a statement like this concerns me.

It should! Ah...alas progress.

This is why we have judges, who consider the facts and render a decision. No judge has ruled that the Rainbow flag is a problem, but judges have held that the Confederate flag may be. There is a difference.

Give it time. Once they set that precedent it only takes a group bringing the next "symbol" into court to be outlawed.

Fair enough. But the subject is the flag's use in high schools in 2008, not the origins of the Civil War.

Read the entire post...not just the origins but it's after effects. And it's use in schools and the way that symbol is percieved and acted upon is because of what again?

An inanimate object has NO POWER, NONE, NADDA, ZILTCH. That flag ain't gonna come down off that pole and hurt anyone. It is not capable of concious thought or action. It is an inanimate object. It is only able to illicit an emotional response in an individual because said individual allows it to do so. So, in essence, who is more responsible for starting a fight over a flag? The flag or the person throwing the first punch?

 

[arnisador]

So, in essence, who is more responsible for starting a fight over a flag? The flag or the person throwing the first punch?

To the principal of the school, what does it matter? He doesn't have a whole police force at his command--he just has hundreds of rowdy teen-agers to manage.

 

[celtic_crippler]

To the principal of the school, what does it matter? He doesn't have a whole police force at his command--he just has hundreds of rowdy teen-agers to manage.

So dress them all in the same uniforms, make them all have the same hair-cuts, and remove anything that would indicate individuality including punishment for using any language other than proper english. Problem solved!

 

[arnisador]

Or, use the system they are using...try to give them their freedom but balance it against their safety.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Or, use the system they are using...try to give them their freedom but balance it against their safety.

I have no problem with a temporary ban which is directly related to the public safety within the school, based on the emergent nature of the situation.

But, once the situation is settled down, normal rules should apply.

 

[Brian King]

Elder999 (others may of course also offer their opinion and I hope that others do so)
Reading this and other threads I had a thought that became a question in my mind that brought about some interesting thoughts, so a quick question that you may be in a unique position to opinion on. I am hoping the discussion if one occurs may increase my understandings LOL no easy task.

This thread has touched on bigotry in various forms, from racism to elitism. I am wondering which is/has been more damaging to society, racism or elitism?

Thanks all
Regards
Brian King

 

[Big Don]

Elder999 (others may of course also offer their opinion and I hope that others do so)
Reading this and other threads I had a thought that became a question in my mind that brought about some interesting thoughts, so a quick question that you may be in a unique position to opinion on. I am hoping the discussion if one occurs may increase my understandings LOL no easy task.

This thread has touched on bigotry in various forms, from racism to elitism. I am wondering which is/has been more damaging to society, racism or elitism?

Thanks all
Regards
Brian King

Interesting question. Start a thread/

 

[Brian King]

I have to admit to not starting a new thread for purely selfish reasons. I am changing the location of my school (moving 30 miles north), have a full time job plus a cleaning business not to mention the martial arts school which leaves little time (in the process of changing that hence the school move) Starting a thread would mean in my opinion having to take the time to follow and perhaps post multiple times in the thread, a commitment I cannot make right now. I think that the question falls along or at least close enough to this thread that I can piggy back this thread and still learn something without the necessary time commitment. See how selfish I can be.

Regards
Brian King