Judges back schools’ Confederate flag ban

[KenpoTex]

it makes one understand how one could see why they would call it Northern Aggression.

well, that and the fact that the U.S. basically raped the southern states both during and after the war...Sherman's March and of course, the "Reconstruction" just to name a couple of examples. In fact, I would say that the "anti-northern" sentiment is due more to the reconstruction than to the war itself.

 

[elder999]

As for the last several posts before that one... how did we go from discussing the Confederate flag to "Bush bashing" and petty arguing? I must have missed something. Since my attention span this week is so short can we get back to the original topic. There are plenty of other threads to generate RTMs in.

I don’t think I’ve ever, even once, accepted the status quo, although I’ve tried mightily hard to fit in, at times. When I was in boarding school, I tried to be what they wanted me to be, mostly to please my parents. Although I received an excellent education, I never had much respect for a few of my teachers. So many of them preached one thing and practiced another. My rebel nature often put me at odds with them, even though they held all the power.

I once got into trouble for referring to the communion wafers in chapel as “Christ Krispies”. I avoided punishment by explaining that I was referring to the wafers before they were put on the altar to become the Body of Christ. I thought it was a witty comparison; the authorities did not. Another time, I took a holy card of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and autographed it to a classmate, who always laughed at my jokes. I wrote on the holy card, “To Lionel, with best wishes, Jesus”. He laughed so hard that the teacher walked to the back of the class and confiscated the holy card. Lionel didn’t tell on me, but I confessed so that he wouldn’t get in trouble.

My piece de resistance came in a religion class one day. The priest who taught that class religion had, shall we say, some issues with alcohol. He stumbled and mumbled a lot. In addition, he absolutely detested me. Guess he’d never heard of the black Irish. :lol: Actually, he probably had more problems with my dad being a priest as well, than anything else-as wel as his class coming easily to me. One boring day, he was going on and on about some obscure point in the Old Testament, and I raised my hand to ask a question. I said, “Father, is that similar to what happened in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Hezekiah?” He mumbled, “Why, yes it is. See what you can do when you apply yourself, Mr. Cuffee.” I replied, “Well Father, the only problem is that there’s no such book in the Bible. Hezekiah was a king, listed in the Old Testament.” In addition to almost being expelled, I became a legend because of that incident. It was a hollow victory though, for I realized it was no big deal to trick someone who was already brain dead. Despite my sometimes irreverent sense of humor, I was always very serious about my search to experience God. It was, and still is, the most important thing in my life.

I’m still a rebel. One of my hobbies is exposing the intolerance of the multicultural, tolerance terrorists. One of them recently admonished a coworker and friend for having a Confederate flag belt buckle. My friend told him he also had a big flag on his wall at home. “It’s offensive,” the other fellow whined, looking to me (given my skin tone) for support. I said,

“Let’s take a politically correct tour of my home. I’ve got a beautiful Aztec sun calendar I bought in Mexico. For hundreds of years the Aztecs had slaves and ripped the beating hearts out of men’s chests as human sacrifices. They often boiled and ate the remains. Should I take down my Aztec sun calendar? Please let me know. I also have a Mexican flag. For years the Mexican government in Chihuahua paid a bounty, in gold, for Apache scalps. Apache men, women, and children were slaughtered and their scalps displayed in front of the cathedral in Chihuahua. Should I remove my Mexican flag? For almost ninety years, slaves were held under the very same Stars and Stripes many people have plastered all over everything today. So, the Confederate flag is offensive? Do me a favor. Go ask the Sioux what flag was flying when they were massacred at Wounded Knee; go ask Geronimo what flag was flying as his people were hunted down like wild animals in New Mexico and Arizona; go ask Sitting Bull which flag they were waving when they murdered him; go ask Mexico which flag was flying when they were invaded, and two-thirds of their country was stolen. I think you’ll discover that the Confederate flag was nowhere in sight, and that it was the same flag I fly in front of my home every day. Remove the board from your own eye before you try to remove a splinter from someone else’s.”

I’m writing about this to show that things are not always what they seem. Intolerant, insensitive people preach tolerance and sensitivity, but don’t practice it. Their allegiance is not to truth. Their allegiance is to the currently popular, politically correct issue. I’ve learned that truth is seldom popular. Truth is often missing from politics and religion. It is, however, essential to spirituality-and to living. Try being a rebel, once in a while. The trouble you’ll get into will be well worth it, when you get to see those politically correct phonies turn purple.

 

[arnisador]

again, the confederate flag has almost nothing to do with slavery. Anyone that is reasonably proficient in their study of history knows this.

You may well feel that the the confederate flag had almost nothing to do with slavery in the 1860s, but today it is certainly interpreted that way (rightly or wrongly). An obvious nod to that fact was the reaction of the Duke boys in the new "Dukes of Hazzard" movie to seeing it on their car. Here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry on the flag:

The display of the Confederate flag remains a highly controversial and emotional topic, generally because of disagreement over the nature of its symbolism. Opponents of the Confederate flag see it as an overt symbol of racism

Your repeated comments about knowledge of history are simply off-base, even if one accepts your points (and I think they too can be contested). If you call someone a lesbian, you're not calling her a resident of the isle of Lesbos, even though that's the historical meaning of the term. History is not always the best guide, I'm afraid.--that's just a saying

I am not usually very keen on banning symbols but I can see where a school might need to restrict images like this to provide a learning environment that isn't oppressive and to maintain good order.

The Civil War was not fought over the "...right to own others."

Well, it was fought over states' rights...one of which was disproportionately important to the Southern states. Let's rely on the unreliable Wikipedia again:

The coexistence of a slave-owning South with an increasingly anti-slavery North made conflict inevitable.

The Civil War had many causes, but slavery was the wedge that drove the Northern and Southern states apart. The confederate battle flag was and remains a potent symbol of this history. Wearing it isn't always ill-intentioned but is surely inflammatory.

 

[elder999]

So, I had a brief talk with my mom about this conversation, and my viewpoint, and she had only one thing to say, which I'll put here:

Aaron Jeffrey, it's good that you can feel that way, and have reached that kind of conclusion, but I want you to remember that when we marched on Selma and Washington with Dr. King, there were people trying to stop us, there were people trying to kill us, and that damned flag is the flag they were waving whenever and wherever they saw us.....

 

[Big Don]

You may well feel that the the confederate flag had almost nothing to do with slavery in the 1860s, but today it is certainly interpreted that way (rightly or wrongly).

When people's views are so far from what is real, it is the responsibility of others to at least try to educate them, about what is or isn't fact.

If you call someone a lesbian, you're not calling her a resident of the isle of Lesbos, even though that's the historical meaning of the term.

Michael Chicklis is my favorite Lesbian. Half his family are Lesbians.

I am not usually very keen on banning symbols but I can see where a school might need to restrict images like this to provide a learning environment that isn't oppressive and to maintain good order.

Would a Star of David emblazoned with the name Hitler be acceptable? Of course not, but the Christian symbol of the stylized fish, adorned with feet and emblazoned with the name Darwin, somehow is. Neither one is respectful, but, only the one making fun of Christianity is acceptable in polite society.

Well, it was fought over states' rights...one of which was disproportionately important to the Southern states. Let's rely on the unreliable Wikipedia again:

The Civil War had many causes, but slavery was the wedge that drove the Northern and Southern states apart. The confederate battle flag was and remains a potent symbol of this history.

Sure it does, to those who do not and will not learn what the war was actually about, but, should the fact that some are ignorant penalize others?

Wearing it isn't always ill-intentioned but is surely inflammatory.

Especially to those folks who are determined to be offended.

 

[celtic_crippler]

You may well feel that the the confederate flag had almost nothing to do with slavery in the 1860s, but today it is certainly interpreted that way (rightly or wrongly). An obvious nod to that fact was the reaction of the Duke boys in the new "Dukes of Hazzard" movie to seeing it on their car. Here's a quote from the Wikipedia entry on the flag:

I don't believe I argued anything about how people view it today. History is...like...you know...in the past.

Your repeated comments about knowledge of history are simply off-base, even if one accepts your points (and I think they too can be contested). If you call someone a lesbian, you're not calling her a resident of the isle of Lesbos, even though that's the historical meaning of the term. History is not always the best guide, I'm afraid.--that's just a saying

My comments are off base and you're citing Wiki as your source....alrighty then. And how do you know I'm not referring to the isle of Lesbos? You don't...and that's my point. Unless you're the famous mystic Ka-Zamm and can read my mind...quick! What am I holding in my right hand?

"History is not always the best guide?" Hmmmm....I wonder if it's thinking like that which consistantly dooms us to repeating the same mistakes over and over again. How's the sayin' go? ....those that don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it. But what do I know...I'm way off base.

I am not usually very keen on banning symbols but I can see where a school might need to restrict images like this to provide a learning environment that isn't oppressive and to maintain good order.

Let's take anything and everything out of the schools that might be offensive, regardless of how they may apply to learning. Now...what shall we teach? Nope, can't do math...the plus (+) sign looks too much like a cross and I am offended by Christian symbols.

Well, it was fought over states' rights...one of which was disproportionately important to the Southern states. Let's rely on the unreliable Wikipedia again:

The Civil War had many causes, but slavery was the wedge that drove the Northern and Southern states apart. The confederate battle flag was and remains a potent symbol of this history. Wearing it isn't always ill-intentioned but is surely inflammatory.

The abolitionist movement was actually small at the time....in all states. Most of the argument over slavery wasn't over an idea as noble as treating fellow human beings in a human fashion. (Dead horse cries for mercy)

It was over how they would be counted as part of the population in regards to representation in the senate which in turn would affect who had the most power; the Industrial North or the Agricultural South. This tied into several issues, quite possibly the most important being the affect on tarrifs. (Look up 3/5 Compromise)

So, to say the Civil War was about slavery is true...but in what regards is usually left unsaid...especially in public school. Most folks don't learn the actual details unless they take their education further.

I understand that "symbols" upset people, but it's usually because of an individual, or group of individuals experience with that symbol as evidenced in elder999's mother's case cited above.

For every symbol, I gaurantee there is somebody somewhere that is offended by it. We have become so thin-skinned in this country that you can't break wind without being served a subpena to appear in court. Hey... you never know... smells could be next on the list of "offensive" things being banned or outlawed.

Unless you can prove that confederate flags are being manufactured for the sole purpose of being used to strangle folks, what's the harm? So what if it's flying in someones front yard? Is that harming anyone? Consider it a blessing that there's something out front letting you know that a person lives there that you may want to avoid so you don't go up to the front door selling them Black Panther Party Favors.

If the same time and effort it takes to organize people to lobby to have a symbol removed were spent actually combating ignorance or the actual organizations that used the symbol to perpetrate hate crimes then something might actually get accomplished.

...it's not the symbol that's bad....it's the organizations that use them for haneous purposes that are bad. I would think one's time would be better spent focusing on them instead.

 

[arnisador]

Ah, the romantic notion of the genteel Old South. I don't share your nostalgia for it. I agree with you that the three-fifths compromise was where things came to a head, but continuing to insist that things mean what you'd like them to mean rather than what they've come to mean doesn't change the state of affairs in 2008.

Let's look at the practical matter that's actually at hand here--a school wants to ban the flag because they believe it incites racial tensions, and they've already had race-related problmes at the school that include a fight(s) and civil rights complaint(s). The judge agreed that the school could take this step to enforce order. It's clear what the symbol means there; banning it is much more effective than your plan to educate everyone about why your view of the symbol is actually more correct now because you feel it was more correct almost 150 years ago, or to get organizations using the flag for heinous purposes to use a different symbol instead. Neither of those seem very workable to me.

Mathematics actually meant astrology for a while. Perhaps we should lobby schools to stop teaching math. on the grounds that it's a pseudo-science?

 

[Empty Hands]

that is crap, and you know it.

For one thing, i am speaking of each being offensive to some people, but one will be allowed and one wont.

It's not crap, and you know it. There is no comparison of offense between the Rainbow flag and the Confederate flag. One is a plea for acceptance, the other is a flag of treason and slavery. It is mealy mouthed nonsense to equate the two by saying that "some people are offended" by either one.

 

[Empty Hands]

Gay people? Are you saying that the Southern States were gay and that's why they seceded? Or, are you trying to say only "gay" people would own a slave?

That's what you got out of the exchange? Remarkable.

second, The civil war was fought over states rights....I just love it when people spout the "they wanted to keep on owning other people" line.

The Civil War was not fought over the "...right to own others." It's not too much to ask that one actually research a topic before actually posting a comment.

To celtic: physician, heal thyself.

To both:
From the official declarations of secession from:
Texas
"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery - the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits - a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time."
Georgia
"For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."
Mississippi
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world."
and for extra essentialist fun which would have been of great surprise to Southern farmers;
"...and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun."

What you apologists always seem to forget, assuming you ever bothered to check for all the exhortations to "study" and "research," is that the secessionists themselves list impositions on slavery as their main reason for going to war. Sure, the war was about "State's Rights", the right of each state to legalize slavery. Anyone that argues otherwise is ignorant of the material documents or has an agenda.

 

[Lynne]

I'm from Virginia. Growing up in the 60's and 70's was a time or racial strife. Integration began during my high school years and we had racial riots at the end of every school year, including 1975 when I graduated.

Even today, there are segregated neighborhoods in Virginia and you had better not step foot into those neighborhoods if you want to live. Racism is alive and well within all skin colors.

I can understand why black Americans would be offended by the Confederate flag but most people who fly the Confederate flag are proud of their heritage, that they are Southerners. They are not proud of slavery and think it is and was an abomination. Heck, my family came to Virginia in the 1600's. We are descendents of Thomas Lord Culpeper. My family is just a proud Southern family. I don't think they've ever flown the Confederate flag but I wouldn't be surprised if they do someday. Some are members of the Daughters of Confederacy.

Now, I live in New York. My next door neighbors have flown the Confederate flag. They are not from the South. In their case, I think it's redneck fashion. There are rednecks everywhere you go - whether Georgia or Maine. Of course, they act and drive like asses. The Confederate flag "seems" to go hand-in-hand with those kinds of people. But this is a stereotype. It isn't always true that someone flying the Confederate flag is a rascist ***.

The Confederate flag is certainly controversial.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Ah, the romantic notion of the genteel Old South. I don't share your nostalgia for it. I agree with you that the three-fifths compromise was where things came to a head, but continuing to insist that things mean what you'd like them to mean rather than what they've come to mean doesn't change the state of affairs in 2008.

Let's look at the practical matter that's actually at hand here--a school wants to ban the flag because they believe it incites racial tensions, and they've already had race-related problmes at the school that include a fight(s) and civil rights complaint(s). The judge agreed that the school could take this step to enforce order. It's clear what the symbol means there; banning it is much more effective than your plan to educate everyone about why your view of the symbol is actually more correct now because you feel it was more correct almost 150 years ago, or to get organizations using the flag for heinous purposes to use a different symbol instead. Neither of those seem very workable to me.

Mathematics actually meant astrology for a while. Perhaps we should lobby schools to stop teaching math. on the grounds that it's a pseudo-science?

I guess symbols and forum posts share one thing in common; people will read into them whatever they please.

Things do come to mean what people (usually the majority) want them to mean.....that's how they come to mean something different than their initial meaning. The swastika was not always associated with Natzi's. It CAME to mean...ah screw it. LOL ...is their any flesh left on that horse?

I'm not arguing that a school should or shouldn't fly a confederate flag. My point is people place too much importance on symbols. It's ridiculous. This in not my opinion or view, it is a fact. Symbols only have power because people give them power.

....if a hate group decided to paint the Playboy Bunny symbol on the houses of a specific group, would you then say that The Hef' was the devil? What am I sayin'....you probably would.

It's not crap, and you know it. There is no comparison of offense between the Rainbow flag and the Confederate flag. One is a plea for acceptance, the other is a flag of treason and slavery. It is mealy mouthed nonsense to equate the two by saying that "some people are offended" by either one.

I personally am not offended by either flag and I think you're missing the point because your reason is clouded by emotion.

 

[Empty Hands]

I personally am not offended by either flag and I think you're missing the point because your reason is clouded by emotion.

I never said you were offended by either flag. I'm not sure I should accept your judgment of my emotional state. Do you even know what point I am making? After all, you thought I was saying all Southerners were gay.

 

[KenpoTex]

It's not crap, and you know it. There is no comparison of offense between the Rainbow flag and the Confederate flag. One is a plea for acceptance, the other is a flag of treason and slavery. It is mealy mouthed nonsense to equate the two by saying that "some people are offended" by either one.

How do you support your claim that the Confederate flag is a flag of treason? What exactly was treasonous about the actions of the southern states?

 

[elder999]

How do you support your claim that the Confederate flag is a flag of treason? What exactly was treasonous about the actions of the southern states?

Article III, Section 3, of the U.S. Constitution : “Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.”

During the American Civil War, no judicial determination was ever made as to whether or not leaders and supporters of the Confederacy were guilty of treason against the U.S. http://www.history.com/encyclopedia/article.jsp?link=FWNE.fw..da016400.aJefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy, was indicted, but he never came to trial.

 

[Empty Hands]

How do you support your claim that the Confederate flag is a flag of treason? What exactly was treasonous about the actions of the southern states?

The Supreme Court declared the foundation of the Confederacy as treason against the US in 1874. Sprott vs. US. No individual could or would be prosecuted however due to the pardon of 1868.

More generally, treason is defined in part in Article 3 Section 3 as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them...". Part of the United States levied war against the other part, apart from any other arguments, leaving the case for treason easy to make.

 

[Twin Fist]

It's not crap, and you know it. There is no comparison of offense between the Rainbow flag and the Confederate flag. One is a plea for acceptance, the other is a flag of treason and slavery. It is mealy mouthed nonsense to equate the two by saying that "some people are offended" by either one.

what YOU call a "plea for acceptance" a lot of people I know call "in your face confrontation"

you are not the final word on anything. You may have an opinion on what the stars and bars symbolizes, but it means nothing to anyone but YOU.

and yeah, sorry that the quite good example confuses you, or that you refuse to acknowledge that it is in fact a pretty good comparison, but that cant be helped.

BOTH are offensive to someone. But ONE will be allowed.

WHY it is acceptable to offend someone but not someone else is the more interesting question

 

[Twin Fist]

More generally, treason is defined in part in Article 3 Section 3 as "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them...". Part of the United States levied war against the other part, apart from any other arguments, leaving the case for treason easy to make.

BZZZZZZZ

wrong answer, thanks for playing.

The south left the union,and made no overt acts of aggression. That has already been established. The north invaded.THAT was the act of war bro.

 

[Empty Hands]

what YOU call a "plea for acceptance" a lot of people I know call "in your face confrontation"

Sure, the same people that think two gay lovers holding hands while they walk down the street is "flaunting their lifestyle". I am not obligated to take the feelings of bigots as particularly noteworthy. Even if it was "in your face confrontation" however, it would still not rise to the level of displaying the flags of the Confederacy.

you are not the final word on anything. You may have an opinion on what the stars and bars symbolizes, but it means nothing to anyone but YOU.

It symbolizes the Confederacy, that is without doubt. The same Confederacy that went to war in order to preserve their "peculiar institution." That is quite clear, as the historical record indicates. Don't make me post more documents...

BOTH are offensive to someone. But ONE will be allowed.
WHY it is acceptable to offend someone but not someone else is the more interesting question

Ham sandwiches are offensive to some people. Do you think they really should be banned? Of course you don't. So then the really interesting question to me is why you think gay people and traitorous slave holders are equivalent.

 

[Empty Hands]

BZZZZZZZ

wrong answer, thanks for playing.

The Supreme Court didn't think so in 1874...

The south left the union,and made no overt acts of aggression. That has already been established. The north invaded.THAT was the act of war bro.

They resupplied a fort. Certainly, construing that as an "invasion" would require quite a bit of convincing. What doesn't require convincing though is that the South fired the first shots. From the beginning then, your thesis faces an uphill battle.

 

[arnisador]

BOTH are offensive to someone. But ONE will be allowed.

WHY it is acceptable to offend someone but not someone else is the more interesting question

The answer is this: The Rainbow flag doesn't mean that violence is imminent...certainty not from those flying it. The concern in this case was that the Confederate flag either indicated that violence was forthcoming from those flying it, or incited those seeing it to violence.

You don't often hear about armed groups of homosexuals attacking people under the rainbow flag. But look here for what comes to my mind when I read a discussion like this.