Journey to a new style...

[Stuarto]

-The White Crane seminar was amazing!! Spent about 3 hours on the first form which is what I actually wanted as this form is in our system, but a fair few differences still. The last hour was on the next form which is toootally different to ours. But wonderful to see the original forms and where ours evolved from. And something which was so memorable, the Master handpicked me (and only a couple of others to do other forms) to perform Happoren/Babulien for everyone. I was so so incredibly honoured, considering this was only my first day of learning it, he was really impressed with how I performed it so pointed me out to demonstrate. So I was crazy nervous with that pressure haha but something I will hold very dear, and feel very honoured.

-And the demonstration day was just magical. Such a wonderful day and everything went very smoothly! All my breaks (of which I did 4) and my form went perfectly, couldn't be happier, and the look on the kids faces... absolutely priceless .

Congratulations Simon, glad to hear you had a fantastic seminar!

 

[Gyakuto]

Sounds amazing. You may not be in a position to answer this until you’ve digested the seminar contents, but do you think the variations/differences in the kata are are just that or are they evolution.

 

[_Simon_]

Sounds amazing. You may not be in a position to answer this until you’ve digested the seminar contents, but do you think the variations/differences in the kata are are just that or are they evolution.

From speaking with more senior students and instructors it's sort of both... and you can definitely see that Nepai for example has elements of Sepai and Saifa. I think alot of forms were developed to expand upon themes within older forms.

But regarding those source forms that remained, they seemed to be altered slightly for certain reasons, perhaps to suit the philosophy or emphasis of the style... that's the gist I'm getting. So evolving, but through those variations haha. I do get what you're asking though, unsure if I answered it

 

[Gyakuto]

My question may be nonsensical because ‘evolution’ suggests modification pushed by environmental factors. In this context that might be due to adoption by a group of people with, say different physical characteristics; longer limbs, more central mass etc. I suspect the variance you have experienced is due to something else such as reinterpretation, the desire to modify or a bad memory!

 

[_Simon_]

My question may be nonsensical because ‘evolution’ suggests modification pushed by environmental factors. In this context that might be due to adoption by a group of people with, say different physical characteristics; longer limbs, more central mass etc. I suspect the variance you have experienced is due to something else such as reinterpretation, the desire to modify or a bad memory!

Yeah it just seems like a natural thing that happens. I admire and do like the efforts to pass on things unadulterated (I myself can be a stickler for form and technique!), but I think we might get too caught up in the specifics of the form; content rather than context. Forms are going to change, what is the form trying to communicate is my thought..

I guess I'm a progressive traditionalist

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think we might get too caught up in the specifics of the form; content rather than context.

The content and the context should be the same. This isn't always possible because sometimes we're not sure what the context s. Plus, it's possible the content has been changed in an irresponsible way. However, the two being reflections of each other is the ideal.

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

 

[_Simon_]

The content and the context should be the same. This isn't always possible because sometimes we're not sure what the context s. Plus, it's possible the content has been changed in an irresponsible way. However, the two being reflections of each other is the ideal.

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

Yeah for sure, well said. I guess what I mean is the absoluteness that we develop regarding the perfect exactness of form. For sure, the content reflects and is an expression of the context, but sometimes it can be a distraction when excessively focused on. I very much am a fan of internalising the principles and themes, letting it be template that informs you as you explore it in a more freeform way. I guess when it comes to very  specific applications the form can matter greatly, but I'm not entirely a literalist bunkaist (yes, I'm inventing words), as in regarding the sole focus on "this move is a response to that". I think we chatted on this at some stage actually hehe. But yeah ideally the content would reflect the context and vice versa.

 

[Gyakuto]

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

Indeed these masters weren’t caught up in aesthetics but meaningless? Precise angles and limb placement is what made post-war Karate look so impressive. Karate is not a hugely effective fighting system; there is much evidence for this, so it’s aesthetic beauty is important.

 

[Fungus]

Will try this next time on bag!

I now tried some random experimental koken versions on the heavy bag - with power - for the first time ever and my conclusion is:

1. koken uchi in this form works great

2. Intuitively the upward version of the same should word fine, although its harder to train on a straight punching bag hanging down - the hunch is that this is the most powerful version; where I can put more power in using the chest muscles.

3. I also tested then downward "oroshi koken", pretty uch like starting out exactly like "shuto mawashi uke" but I angle the arm in the end and strike with koke instead of shuto.

4. I also improvise with a what one may call "mawashi koken", so insstead of mawashi seiken tsuki, I angle the arm and strike with koken. But this was at least for me NOT good! When you apply power, it leaves your elbow in an akward and vulnerable angle. So I would say not robst, but high risk of damaging your own elbow joint. It seems the twristing of the arm, destabilizes the elbow. Or it was my experience.

=> The similar mawashi haito I regularly do at the bag, and even in sparring, but then only to the upper arm, or maybe armpit. But the angle of koken makes in unstable.

The hunch is that version 2 will give more power, 1 and 3 are comparatively weak, but they will of course do for head strikes, but not for body strikes I think. 4 is bad for me, will not do again.

the most practical version seems to me to be for example this combo

 

[_Simon_]

I now tried some random experimental koken versions on the heavy bag - with power - for the first time ever and my conclusion is:

1. koken uchi in this form works great

2. Intuitively the upward version of the same should word fine, although its harder to train on a straight punching bag hanging down - the hunch is that this is the most powerful version; where I can put more power in using the chest muscles.

3. I also tested then downward "oroshi koken", pretty uch like starting out exactly like "shuto mawashi uke" but I angle the arm in the end and strike with koke instead of shuto.

4. I also improvise with a what one may call "mawashi koken", so insstead of mawashi seiken tsuki, I angle the arm and strike with koken. But this was at least for me NOT good! When you apply power, it leaves your elbow in an akward and vulnerable angle. So I would say not robst, but high risk of damaging your own elbow joint. It seems the twristing of the arm, destabilizes the elbow. Or it was my experience.

=> The similar mawashi haito I regularly do at the bag, and even in sparring, but then only to the upper arm, or maybe armpit. But the angle of koken makes in unstable.

The hunch is that version 2 will give more power, 1 and 3 are comparatively weak, but they will of course do for head strikes, but not for body strikes I think. 4 is bad for me, will not do again.

the most practical version seems to me to be for example this combo

Ahh I'm so very pleased you experimented with this one!!

Yeah very interesting findings you had! Yeah the first version you listed is what I broke the board with. It feels incredibly powerful to me, especially when you really solidify the hand by bringing the fingers inwards, and it just feels super comfortable and not awkward at all like I thought it may. I'll have to try some variations, thanks for posting your findings!

 

[Fungus]

I would look forward to some board breaking in our dojo, it would be fun! But as it's not part fo the normal curriculum I think it's mostly for show or at competitions, we have yet not done it in the dojo. I have at home however some of these reusable boards that I played with, but even the thickest one is easy, so I presume you need a whole bunch of them or some harder ones. I heard howerver that our shihan in the past liked to break baseball bats when there is open house, but they dont do it much as it make scare parents off thikning it's too brute.

 

[Gyakuto]

I’ve seen a Tae Kwon Do ‘dance/breaking act’ for entertainment on ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ (Britain doesn’t have any talent, by the way, all the best acts/winners come from abroad!).

Those boards seem to fall apart with the slightest breath of wind from a fist or foot. What kind of timber are they and how are they treated to behave like that? I assume they’re not used for breaks in gradings? Can I hire people like this for a large project involving carpentry? They’d save an enormous amount of time.

 

[_Simon_]

I would look forward to some board breaking in our dojo, it would be fun! But as it's not part fo the normal curriculum I think it's mostly for show or at competitions, we have yet not done it in the dojo. I have at home however some of these reusable boards that I played with, but even the thickest one is easy, so I presume you need a whole bunch of them or some harder ones. I heard howerver that our shihan in the past liked to break baseball bats when there is open house, but they dont do it much as it make scare parents off thikning it's too brute.

Baseball bats are hardcore haha.

Yeah I quite enjoy board breaking. In my old Kyokushin branch it is actually a requirement for senior gradings (I think for 3th kyu and up). I feel there's way more to it than just demonstration, as it does really test out that you've got alot of things in check (need great technique, power generation, focus, accuracy, mental fortitude etc).

And it was good fun doing breaks not with the usual striking surfaces to really challenge myself too!

 

[Gyakuto]

Baseball bats are hardcore haha.

It looks so painful!

Yeah I quite enjoy board breaking. In my old Kyokushin branch it is actually a requirement for senior gradings (I think for 3th kyu and up).

Oh, I though breaking was a universal requirement in Kyokushin gradings. It was always cited as the exception to the actual rule in those general Karate books one would read in the 80s as a beginner.

And it was good fun doing breaks not with the usual striking surfaces to really challenge myself too!

Nose? Scapulae? Eyelids?

 

[Fungus]

Oh, I though breaking was a universal requirement in Kyokushin gradings. It was always cited as the exception to the actual rule in those general Karate books one would read in the 80s as a beginner.

We have no formal tameshiwari grading requirements in our club. I don't know why But I think that if you can't use the technhiques with real power, then you have grossly missed some points. So I think it would be a good idea, perhaps I have to send in a complaint.

This is why I very much enjoy the high contact sparring, and heavy bag work as well. It's first when I can apply a technique with power and against resistance that I feel that I have it under control and in balance. Kicking in the air, or just tapping, isn't the same feeling.

Only "extra" physical requirements we have beyhond teh techniques are are certain number of pushups on seiken, koken and fingers; as well as situps and certain number of jumping kicking the heavy bag with BOTH feet at the same time, and of course kumite. And during kumite the partners push you close to the limit, so if you are tought it will not be easier - they will know and they will put you against the toughest and biggest opponents in the dojo and instruct them do go harder.

 

[Gyakuto]

We have no formal tameshiwari grading requirements in our club. I don't know why But I think that if you can't use the technhiques with real power, then you have grossly missed some points.

But what about the sheer pain and potential damage of a human body part hitting a hard surface with great force? There comes a point where biological tissues are unable to withstand such forces. Also, despite it’s impressiveness, what is it’s point and can’t that be demonstrated in some other, safer way?

This is why I very much enjoy the high contact sparring, and heavy bag work as well. It's first when I can apply a technique with power and against resistance that I feel that I have it under control and in balance. Kicking in the air, or just tapping, isn't the same feeling.

That’s true but the type of training you enjoy would put off the majority of others. I suffered it in a Goju Ryu class and after days of bruised ribs and abdominal muscles, decide never to return even though I knew I was destined for an eighth Dan I have enough aches and pains in my life, probably due to reduced endogenous cannabinoids/endorphins release, without adding to them!

Only "extra" physical requirements we have beyhond teh techniques are are certain number of pushups on seiken, koken and fingers; as well as situps and certain number of jumping kicking the heavy bag with BOTH feet at the same time, and of course kumite. And during kumite the partners push you close to the limit, so if you are tought it will not be easier - they will know and they will put you against the toughest and biggest opponents in the dojo and instruct them do go harder.

<shudder> It’s not for me. I’ll stick to waving a fake sword whilst wearing a skirt and knee pads!

 

[Fungus]

But what about the sheer pain and potential damage of a human body part hitting a hard surface with great force? There comes a point where biological tissues are unable to withstand such forces. Also, despite it’s impressiveness, what is it’s point and can’t that be demonstrated in some other, safer way?

Of course, the level of where saftey concern should take priority is something that has to be considered, and it will likely be both individual and age related. I am not suggesting some stupid macho mentality that you should do stupid things, but I feel that the level of sparring I do still has some margin before getting stupid.

That’s true but the type of training you enjoy would put off the majority of others.

I think you right here, I hear from others in the club that not everyone loves the tougher sparring as much. Some sparr only when they "have to" for gradings, I don't miss a sparring session unless I am sick or away.

I suffered it in a Goju Ryu class and after days of bruised ribs and abdominal muscles, decide never to return even though I knew I was destined for an eighth Dan I have enough aches and pains in my life, probably due to reduced endogenous cannabinoids/endorphins release, without adding to them!

I get your point, by I think I am the opposite, maybe I am the weird one here. Bruises cases overproduction of endorphins for me, and it "masks" my nerve jam pain. So regular hard fighting with some constant brusing, helps me. I am fine with slightly bruised ribs and muscles.

For me the limite is i do not want to BREAK bones and not cauase joint damage. Otherwise I am open for "good pain" . Even if our dojo, I seem to belong the small share that want to go a little harder. One of our instructors knows this, so he always gives me some extra hard attacks, not to be nasty but because he knows i can take it and appreciate it.

 

[Gyakuto]

A masochist is tied to a tree when a sadist walked by.
“Hey,” shouts the masochist, “punch me!”
The sadist says, quietly, “No.”

 

[_Simon_]

GASSHUKU THIS WEEKEND!!!

I'm.... a little excited . With the other group from last year (same style, different club/org). A solid 10 hours of training, and this year it's beachside, so hopefully we do some beach training!!!

Did I mention I'm excited?

 

[Gyakuto]

GASSHUKU THIS WEEKEND!!!

I'm.... a little excited . With the other group from last year (same style, different club/org). A solid 10 hours of training, and this year it's beachside, so hopefully we do some beach training!!!

Did I mention I'm excited?

It’s not normal to so excited about this kind of thing