Journey to a new style...

[Stuarto]

-The White Crane seminar was amazing!! Spent about 3 hours on the first form which is what I actually wanted as this form is in our system, but a fair few differences still. The last hour was on the next form which is toootally different to ours. But wonderful to see the original forms and where ours evolved from. And something which was so memorable, the Master handpicked me (and only a couple of others to do other forms) to perform Happoren/Babulien for everyone. I was so so incredibly honoured, considering this was only my first day of learning it, he was really impressed with how I performed it so pointed me out to demonstrate. So I was crazy nervous with that pressure haha but something I will hold very dear, and feel very honoured.

-And the demonstration day was just magical. Such a wonderful day and everything went very smoothly! All my breaks (of which I did 4) and my form went perfectly, couldn't be happier, and the look on the kids faces... absolutely priceless .

Congratulations Simon, glad to hear you had a fantastic seminar!

 

[Gyakuto]

Sounds amazing. You may not be in a position to answer this until you’ve digested the seminar contents, but do you think the variations/differences in the kata are are just that or are they evolution.

 

[_Simon_]

Sounds amazing. You may not be in a position to answer this until you’ve digested the seminar contents, but do you think the variations/differences in the kata are are just that or are they evolution.

From speaking with more senior students and instructors it's sort of both... and you can definitely see that Nepai for example has elements of Sepai and Saifa. I think alot of forms were developed to expand upon themes within older forms.

But regarding those source forms that remained, they seemed to be altered slightly for certain reasons, perhaps to suit the philosophy or emphasis of the style... that's the gist I'm getting. So evolving, but through those variations haha. I do get what you're asking though, unsure if I answered it

 

[Gyakuto]

My question may be nonsensical because ‘evolution’ suggests modification pushed by environmental factors. In this context that might be due to adoption by a group of people with, say different physical characteristics; longer limbs, more central mass etc. I suspect the variance you have experienced is due to something else such as reinterpretation, the desire to modify or a bad memory!

 

[_Simon_]

My question may be nonsensical because ‘evolution’ suggests modification pushed by environmental factors. In this context that might be due to adoption by a group of people with, say different physical characteristics; longer limbs, more central mass etc. I suspect the variance you have experienced is due to something else such as reinterpretation, the desire to modify or a bad memory!

Yeah it just seems like a natural thing that happens. I admire and do like the efforts to pass on things unadulterated (I myself can be a stickler for form and technique!), but I think we might get too caught up in the specifics of the form; content rather than context. Forms are going to change, what is the form trying to communicate is my thought..

I guess I'm a progressive traditionalist

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think we might get too caught up in the specifics of the form; content rather than context.

The content and the context should be the same. This isn't always possible because sometimes we're not sure what the context s. Plus, it's possible the content has been changed in an irresponsible way. However, the two being reflections of each other is the ideal.

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

 

[_Simon_]

The content and the context should be the same. This isn't always possible because sometimes we're not sure what the context s. Plus, it's possible the content has been changed in an irresponsible way. However, the two being reflections of each other is the ideal.

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

Yeah for sure, well said. I guess what I mean is the absoluteness that we develop regarding the perfect exactness of form. For sure, the content reflects and is an expression of the context, but sometimes it can be a distraction when excessively focused on. I very much am a fan of internalising the principles and themes, letting it be template that informs you as you explore it in a more freeform way. I guess when it comes to very  specific applications the form can matter greatly, but I'm not entirely a literalist bunkaist (yes, I'm inventing words), as in regarding the sole focus on "this move is a response to that". I think we chatted on this at some stage actually hehe. But yeah ideally the content would reflect the context and vice versa.

 

[Gyakuto]

As for the specifics, like exact foot angle or arm position, they may be important for the bunkai to work, other times they may just be arbitrary standards important only in testing or competition. From what I've seen of the older masters who learned pre-WWll, they were not caught up in aesthetics or meaningless trivialities.

Indeed these masters weren’t caught up in aesthetics but meaningless? Precise angles and limb placement is what made post-war Karate look so impressive. Karate is not a hugely effective fighting system; there is much evidence for this, so it’s aesthetic beauty is important.

 

[Fungus]

Will try this next time on bag!

I now tried some random experimental koken versions on the heavy bag - with power - for the first time ever and my conclusion is:

1. koken uchi in this form works great

2. Intuitively the upward version of the same should word fine, although its harder to train on a straight punching bag hanging down - the hunch is that this is the most powerful version; where I can put more power in using the chest muscles.

3. I also tested then downward "oroshi koken", pretty uch like starting out exactly like "shuto mawashi uke" but I angle the arm in the end and strike with koke instead of shuto.

4. I also improvise with a what one may call "mawashi koken", so insstead of mawashi seiken tsuki, I angle the arm and strike with koken. But this was at least for me NOT good! When you apply power, it leaves your elbow in an akward and vulnerable angle. So I would say not robst, but high risk of damaging your own elbow joint. It seems the twristing of the arm, destabilizes the elbow. Or it was my experience.

=> The similar mawashi haito I regularly do at the bag, and even in sparring, but then only to the upper arm, or maybe armpit. But the angle of koken makes in unstable.

The hunch is that version 2 will give more power, 1 and 3 are comparatively weak, but they will of course do for head strikes, but not for body strikes I think. 4 is bad for me, will not do again.

the most practical version seems to me to be for example this combo