Journey to a new style...

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So, to prevent the millionth grappling thread...@_Simon_, do you have any plans to continue going to the TSD place? Or going to keep on looking?

Edit: hmm it's not letting me tag @_Simon_ up there, but letting me here...weird.

 

[drop bear]

Nothing, but that wasn't my point. Some counters that use the hips to shift the opponent aren't useful when the opponent doesn't put weight on. There are side control methods I can use that don't put much of my weight on the opponent, to take that tool away.

Everyone even quality grapplers know gag escapes.

Where the person on top is so hilariously bad that you just roll them off.

You are rarely defeating someone by being more terrible than they expect.

 

[drop bear]

I'm talking about things like a basic upa. That uses the hips/legs to shift them, which wouldn't be useful if their weight isn't on them. I'm not arguing this makes it harder to escape/counter, but that it's a very different thing to escape/counter. In many ways, it's easier, but you do need a different approach.

There is a trick in mount where you squeeze your knees together and sit a bit off the guy to prevent a sweep.

But that is different to just being a dud.

 

[_Simon_]

I’ve been told Heian is just the Japanese pronunciation of Pinan. Same kanji, same meaning. Many of the Japanese schools went back to calling them Pinan instead of Heian.

Your Bushi Matsumura stuff jogged my memory a bit. I think the Okinawan teacher I talked about only teaches Pinan 5 because that’s the only intact way Matsumura allegedly taught it (or the closest possible), whereas the claim is Itosu (and possibly Funakoshi, depending on who you ask) changed the Pinan series quite a bit.

Some claim the Pinan series is Itosu’s creation, breaking down Kusanku/Kanku into easier bits for children and beginners. Others claim it was I believe Matsumura’s and is based on another prominent kata* and a bit of Kanku.

At the end of the day, it’s all trivial knowledge to me Interesting, but trivial; I need to know what I’ve been taught.

*I can’t for the life of me remember which kata it was claimed. I want to say Gojushiho, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s a prominent kata that’s not done in either organization I’ve been in. I’ve seen it many times, and after watching for the Pinan kata, it looked far closer to the Pinans than Kanku does. It’s done in Shotokan, and I remember watching a Kanazawa video of it when I was watching for Pinan stuff in it. Really driving me crazy now

Hehe yeah to me I could definitely see the Pinans as being derived from Kanku, so many times I've watched someone mid-way Kanku thinking "Ah cool they're doing Pinan 2/4/5" but alas it wasn't!

 

[_Simon_]

So, to prevent the millionth grappling thread...@_Simon_, do you have any plans to continue going to the TSD place? Or going to keep on looking?

Edit: hmm it's not letting me tag @_Simon_ up there, but letting me here...weird.

Haha all good, appreciate the segway back . It is funny how a very non-grappling thread turned into one!

Yeah I definitely will, am not sure if I'll do the full month trial like I've been doing, but maybe a couple of weeks to get the feel of it. It'll have to be next week sometime as they have a grading on and won't have normal class. But I'll update y'all on how it goes.

And yeah that's strange, but regardless I read through all the posts anyway

 

[JR 137]

Hehe yeah to me I could definitely see the Pinans as being derived from Kanku, so many times I've watched someone mid-way Kanku thinking "Ah cool they're doing Pinan 2/4/5" but alas it wasn't!

I’m assuming Kyokushin Kanku? Sosai heavily modified that kata, and it looks far more Pinan than any other version of Kanku. I really like the Kyokushin Kanku, but saying there’s a lot of parallels based on that version isn’t really accurate in the whole grand scheme of Kanku.

It’s like Useishi. Sosai heavily modified Gojushiho, and because of the heavy modification renamed it Useishi. Useishi somehow also means Gojushiho - 54 Steps. I think it’s an older way of saying it. Gotta love languages I don’t understand

 

[_Simon_]

I’m assuming Kyokushin Kanku? Sosai heavily modified that kata, and it looks far more Pinan than any other version of Kanku. I really like the Kyokushin Kanku, but saying there’s a lot of parallels based on that version isn’t really accurate in the whole grand scheme of Kanku.

It’s like Useishi. Sosai heavily modified Gojushiho, and because of the heavy modification renamed it Useishi. Useishi somehow also means Gojushiho - 54 Steps. I think it’s an older way of saying it. Gotta love languages I don’t understand

Yeah Kyokushin Kanku but I was mainly referring to other versions of Kanku that have alot of elements/sequences of Pinan katas. But it's been awhile since I've watched it, I may be mixing them up. XD

I don't think I've seen Useishi, just looked in the syllabus, there's Sushiho for 3rd Dan in there but unsure if that's the same as Gojushiho/Useishi.

Ah just Wiki'd Gojushiho, yep other names include Useishi and Sushiho. Ah and also says: "Gojushiho was developed by one of the Okinawan karate master, "Sokon Matsumura" and named it as "Uesheishi" under the fluency of chinese Kungfu." Fascinating..

 

[dvcochran]

It isn't about one art being better than the other. It's about doing things the right way and the wrong way. If your goal is to escape the ground as quickly as possible, doing things the wrong way isn't going to help you achieve that goal.

You mean YOUR right way don't you?
Every art has merit. Every art has things it does better, and worse, that others. You are seriously kidding yourself with this idea that BJJ does everything right. I am certain your MA sample is very, very small. It is proven by your ideas.

 

[JR 137]

@_Simon_
See any similarities between the Pinan series and Gankaku kata (aka Chinto before Funakoshi renamed it)?

Edit: Then again, Kanku Dai

I think Pinan had to have come from both, not one or the other. Too many similarities IMO.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah Kyokushin Kanku but I was mainly referring to other versions of Kanku that have alot of elements/sequences of Pinan katas. But it's been awhile since I've watched it, I may be mixing them up. XD

I don't think I've seen Useishi, just looked in the syllabus, there's Sushiho for 3rd Dan in there but unsure if that's the same as Gojushiho/Useishi.

Ah just Wiki'd Gojushiho, yep other names include Useishi and Sushiho. Ah and also says: "Gojushiho was developed by one of the Okinawan karate master, "Sokon Matsumura" and named it as "Uesheishi" under the fluency of chinese Kungfu." Fascinating..

Sorry, I meant Sushiho, not Useishi. My mistake. No idea how I mixed up the names. I think Useishi is the Okinawan pronunciation of Gojushiho?

 

[_Simon_]

@_Simon_
See any similarities between the Pinan series and Gankaku kata (aka Chinto before Funakoshi renamed it)?

Edit: Then again, Kanku Dai

I think Pinan had to have come from both, not one or the other. Too many similarities IMO.

Ah thanks for posting!

Gankaku was awesome... definitely could see remnants of Pinan 3 and 5 in there!

Kanku had Pinan 2 and 4 elements from what I could see! I will have to learn both of those now (have always wanted to learn Kanku anyway, fingers crossed the style I go with has that)

 

[Hanzou]

You mean YOUR right way don't you?
Every art has merit. Every art has things it does better, and worse, that others. You are seriously kidding yourself with this idea that BJJ does everything right. I am certain your MA sample is very, very small. It is proven by your ideas.

No, the right way period. You're either doing it right, or you're doing it wrong. I've already thoroughly broken down why those Hapkido schools were doing their ground fighting wrong. If you find issue with my breakdowns, by all means tell me how I'm wrong.

Every art has merit, that is true. However the discussion here was about quality control, and the fact that the lack of competition or standards caused questionable stuff to pop up within the sphere of Hapkido. So much so, that some of these schools are comfortable enough to post their craziness online for the world to see. Here's another such example;

I have no issue with Hapkido schools adopting BJJ to their curriculums, but if you're going to do it, please either hire a Bjj instructor, or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students. Also be up front and HONEST about where you're pulling these techniques from.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students

A good BJJ blue belt can deliver some quality ground work instruction for the very basics, in my experience. Not all of them, but those who have skill (learned or natural) at teaching can.

 

[dvcochran]

No, the right way period. You're either doing it right, or you're doing it wrong. I've already thoroughly broken down why those Hapkido schools were doing their ground fighting wrong. If you find issue with my breakdowns, by all means tell me how I'm wrong.

Every art has merit, that is true. However the discussion here was about quality control, and the fact that the lack of competition or standards caused questionable stuff to pop up within the sphere of Hapkido. So much so, that some of these schools are comfortable enough to post their craziness online for the world to see. Here's another such example;

I have no issue with Hapkido schools adopting BJJ to their curriculums, but if you're going to do it, please either hire a Bjj instructor, or wait until you're at least a purple belt to start teaching it to your students. Also be up front and HONEST about where you're pulling these techniques from.

I have no doubt a blue belt in BJJ knows some ground work. That is not the point that you just keep missing. While you are very passionate about your BJJ and I can appreciate that, most everything you are arguing in proposition for can be argued in Hapkido, and all other styles. For example, you have railed on the validity of the origins of Hapkido. A quick internet search stirs up the same findings regarding BJJ in origin and who it has taken some of its methods from. So please do us all a favor and chill out a little with your very tilted opinion. Two sides of the coin and all. You can be passionate about your art without coming off sounding just, stupid.

 

[Hanzou]

I have no doubt a blue belt in BJJ knows some ground work. That is not the point that you just keep missing.

Correct. The point is that none of those Hapkido instructors showing those techniques were Blue belt level. In fact, I would argue that they're not even a striped white belt. Their groundwork actually looks like it was taken from youtube.

While you are very passionate about your BJJ and I can appreciate that, most everything you are arguing in proposition for can be argued in Hapkido, and all other style. For example, you have railed on the validity of the origins of Hapkido. A quick internet search stirs up the same findings regarding BJJ in origin and who it has taken some of its methods from.

Elaborate please. No one disputes that the Gracies (and others) learned Judo/Jujutsu from Maeda. However there is heavy dispute that Choi learned Daito Ryu from Takeda, especially among Daito Ryu exponents living and dead. Additionally I provided the issues with the "Hapkido ground fighting" techniques displayed in the videos I posted.

What origins of BJJ are you talking about in particular?

So please do us all a favor and chill out a little with your very tilted opinion. Two sides of the coin and all. You can be passionate about your art without coming off sounding just, stupid.

Except its not an opinion, and its not "two sides of the coin". The ground fighting shown in those vids I posted was bad, and could potentially get someone hurt or killed, and that's a fact. Your opinions displayed in this thread are noted. I'm still waiting for you to provide some facts to back up what you're claiming.

 

[DaveB]

I’ve been told Heian is just the Japanese pronunciation of Pinan. Same kanji, same meaning. Many of the Japanese schools went back to calling them Pinan instead of Heian.

Your Bushi Matsumura stuff jogged my memory a bit. I think the Okinawan teacher I talked about only teaches Pinan 5 because that’s the only intact way Matsumura allegedly taught it (or the closest possible), whereas the claim is Itosu (and possibly Funakoshi, depending on who you ask) changed the Pinan series quite a bit.

Some claim the Pinan series is Itosu’s creation, breaking down Kusanku/Kanku into easier bits for children and beginners. Others claim it was I believe Matsumura’s and is based on another prominent kata* and a bit of Kanku.

At the end of the day, it’s all trivial knowledge to me Interesting, but trivial; I need to know what I’ve been taught.

*I can’t for the life of me remember which kata it was claimed. I want to say Gojushiho, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. It’s a prominent kata that’s not done in either organization I’ve been in. I’ve seen it many times, and after watching for the Pinan kata, it looked far closer to the Pinans than Kanku does. It’s done in Shotokan, and I remember watching a Kanazawa video of it when I was watching for Pinan stuff in it. Really driving me crazy now

I think there's a slight difference to the meaning of hiean/Pinan, but it is essentially the same thing.

The generally accepted view was that all 5 were from Itosu, derived from kanku dai (kusanku), but more recent study suggests they come from a dead kata called Channan that may or may not be from Shaolin. Then application study suggests that 3, 4 and 5 each derive from an older kata, 3 = Jion/Jitte, 4 = Kanku dai and 5 = Chinto.

1 and 2 could come from kanku dai as well but they could equally be unique additions, but the split does give credence to the idea that Matsumura developed them.

The idea that the Pinan are for kids is somewhat overblown. They are more like an introductory self defence course but one meant to cover 2-4 years. The name means something like Peaceful, and is supposed to indicate the sense of security one has at knowing he can defend himself because of mastery of these techniques.

 

[_Simon_]

Okeydokey, so yep as per my other Rolled ankle thread.... I'm out of action for a little while. At the tournament 11 weeks ago I rolled my ankle badly, and x-ray, ultrasound and ct scan showed partially torn ligament, fracture and bone fragment. Gonna have a cast put on and then recover, then physiotherapy down the track.

So no new style for the moment... was very emotional and bummed out by this but I'll just focus on what I can do. Which is jumping flying side kicks over 7 people breaking 4 stacked boards being held by a grizzly bear.

Thanks for tuning in! No idea how I can keep my cardio up during this time haha, there are only so many pushups I can muster. Will still do upper body weight training, hand techniques, and pistol squats galore with my good leg hehe!

 

[Flying Crane]

Okeydokey, so yep as per my other Rolled ankle thread.... I'm out of action for a little while. At the tournament 11 weeks ago I rolled my ankle badly, and x-ray, ultrasound and ct scan showed partially torn ligament, fracture and bone fragment. Gonna have a cast put on and then recover, then physiotherapy down the track.

So no new style for the moment... was very emotional and bummed out by this but I'll just focus on what I can do. Which is jumping flying side kicks over 7 people breaking 4 stacked boards being held by a grizzly bear.

Thanks for tuning in! No idea how I can keep my cardio up during this time haha, there are only so many pushups I can muster. Will still do upper body weight training, hand techniques, and pistol squats galore with my good leg hehe!

They’ve got grizzlies in the land of Oz?

 

[_Simon_]

They’ve got grizzlies in the land of Oz?

Hehe nah we don't, was just thinking of one of the more dangerous activities I could be doing [emoji14]

 

[_Simon_]

I joined up as a member of Sensei Rick's Sunday Morning Keiko in January, and received the physical stuff today .

I joined as a supplement to my path, wherever I may end up, it provides alot of thought and insight into training which I. really resonate with

It was perfect timing, as I was struggling a bit on the martial path of late, and was stoked to see this on my doorstep. In the package is a welcome letter, certificate of membership, engraved perspex member's card, and a training passport/journal which has an inquiry section for writing your own personal inquiry, training records and notes, and a general notes section (also has a lot of great chapters of insightful writing in it too, not only regarding karate, but mindset, philosophy, perspective etc).

You get access to the exclusive members content online, which is a bunch of different training clips with Sensei Rick (and a few others) explaining key concepts and applications, as well as access to the member's forum so you can chat with others in the community.

Very cool