Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[RTKDCMB]

Well I would of course like to know that these self defence situations are not just made up.

You have stated a number of times during your time as a doorman where you were in a scuffle and had to use some of your fighting skills. How do we know you have not just made up those?

Let's say it would be reasonable if your system kept a log of self defence situations that could at least be verified in some way.

Do you have anything like that?

Sorry but we don't walk around everywhere with official record keepers or a camera crew to capture the moments we find ourselves having to defend ourselves.

If tell you that I have been in a self defense situation and what happened and i do not have police reports, video or newspaper articles to show you then you have only my word and your assessment of my honesty and whether my report seems reasonable and consistent with reality.

Question - do you accept atomic theory to be a true and correct explanation of the properties of matter? (this may seem irrelevant and unrelated but I will use it to make a point).

 

[Drose427]

A bonafide traditional karate master wrecking people in MMA would make millions. He would be a massive draw for the sport.

Really?

Cause theres a pretty long list......

Even in Karate alone, theres a huge percentage of people who dont care at all about competition....Heck, there are folks in boxing and MMA gyms that dont care to compete....

Machida has too much non-Karate influence (he's also a black belt in Bjj).

Additionally he's past his prime.

Again....theres a pretty strong list in both kick boxing and MMA.....but whatever..

 

[Steve]

A bonafide traditional karate master wrecking people in MMA would make millions. He would be a massive draw for the sport.

It's been done, and they have. But, you have to modify the way you train, and also cross train. Guys like Lyoto Machida do very well because they train for the medium, and are aware of the gaps in their training that must be filled.

 

[Steve]

Really?

Cause theres a pretty long list......

Even in Karate alone, theres a huge percentage of people who dont care at all about competition....Heck, there are folks in boxing and MMA gyms that dont care to compete....

Again....theres a pretty strong list in both kick boxing and MMA.....but whatever..

Once again, it's the training model, not the techniques. If styles fall down, it's likely because there is a lack of practical feedback given to the students.

The association fallacy at work. I train BJJ and Ryan Hall trains BJJ, therefore, I can do what Ryan Hall does. Student A and Lyoto Machida are black belts in Shotokan Karate. Lyoto Machida is successful using his Shotokan Karate in MMA. Therefore, student A will also be successful in MMA. Doesn't hold up.

It works for self defense, too. I am learning "Style A" from my instructor. My instructor is able to use style A to successfully defend himself. Ergo, I am able to defend myself. Doesn't work.

 

[Drose427]

Once again, it's the training model, not the techniques. If styles fall down, it's likely because there is a lack of practical feedback given to the students.

The association fallacy at work. I train BJJ and Ryan Hall trains BJJ, therefore, I can do what Ryan Hall does. Student A and Lyoto Machida are black belts in Shotokan Karate. Lyoto Machida is successful using his Shotokan Karate in MMA. Therefore, student A will also be successful in MMA. Doesn't hold up.

It works for self defense, too. I am learning "Style A" from my instructor. My instructor is able to use style A to successfully defend himself. Ergo, I am able to defend myself. Doesn't work.

that still kills the "style A is bad cause tim lost his bout" argument though,

 

[Steve]

Yeah. I'm of the opinion that any style trained well is going to work pretty well. Techniques that aren't practical will naturally weed themselves out.

 

[TSDTexan]

Really? TMA guys used to be all about competitions. Some styles were even created from the founders victory in NHB combat. Ueshiba, Motobu, Yuanija, etc. were all about accepting challenges.

I wonder what changed......

American instant gratification and mahnee!

 

[drop bear]

You have stated a number of times during your time as a doorman where you were in a scuffle and had to use some of your fighting skills. How do we know you have not just made up those?

We don't. So let's say that if I was to validate a system tales from some door man would not cut it.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry but we don't walk around everywhere with official record keepers or a camera crew to capture the moments we find ourselves having to defend ourselves.

If tell you that I have been in a self defense situation and what happened and i do not have police reports, video or newspaper articles to show you then you have only my word and your assessment of my honesty and whether my report seems reasonable and consistent with reality.

Question - do you accept atomic theory to be a true and correct explanation of the properties of matter? (this may seem irrelevant and unrelated but I will use it to make a point).

OK. We will discount that as anecdotal as well.

What else do you have that shows your system is valid?

I don't have the background in physics to have an opinion.

Would you accept my defensive use of chi balls?

 

[Hanzou]

Really?

Cause theres a pretty long list......

Name them.

Even in Karate alone, theres a huge percentage of people who don't care at all about competition....Heck, there are folks in boxing and MMA gyms that don't care to compete....

That wasn't the argument.

Again....theres a pretty strong list in both kick boxing and MMA.....but whatever..

Sure, someone with a karate base that branched off. Not someone who only trained in traditional karate.

 

[drop bear]

Really?

Cause theres a pretty long list......

Even in Karate alone, theres a huge percentage of people who dont care at all about competition....Heck, there are folks in boxing and MMA gyms that dont care to compete....



Again....theres a pretty strong list in both kick boxing and MMA.....but whatever..

Do you feel the mma guys who don't compete are at the same standard as the ones who do?

 

[drop bear]

that still kills the "style A is bad cause tim lost his bout" argument though,

Depends who you fight.

OK. So random kung fu guy vs a Gracie gun for hire is going to loose. Kung fu guy goes home takes control of the holes In his game gets better.

Becomes a good martial artist.

It is important to court loss.

 

[renc]

renc said: Hyperbole, ridicule and stereotype. Rhetorical devices, not good communication. Not scientific nor productive.

Here's the root of this entire thread. It's not what Joe Rogan said. It's how he said it.

No, the content and lack thereof is my primary interest here, the emphasis on 'rhetoric' vs 'scientific'.
Hyperbole = exaggeration = inaccuracy
Ridicule = lack of substance
Stereotype = over generalization = inaccuracy
Tone in as far as promoting discussion is a lesser concern... we can talk pleasantly about nothing at all.
By the way the above refers to Gregoriades. And this guy is meant to be a teacher. Yikes.
My issues with Joe Rogan's statements are to do with logic and rigor in the most part.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Really? TMA guys used to be all about competitions. Some styles were even created from the founders victory in NHB combat. Ueshiba, Motobu, Yuanija, etc. were all about accepting challenges.

I wonder what changed......

from what I understand in CMA those guys didn't care about competition as a sport. Some were known to be cruel and some were known for killing others in street fights. if you look back in history you'll see that this was common. The sport fighting that we know of today is tame compared to Rome's fighting arenas. China was at war with itself for a long time and and the communist government outlawed martial arts so citizens couldn't fight back. Things like that is what makes me think that those fighting systems are valid. I don't think the system changed as much as the people changed. We even see this worth how some people trash valid fighting systems and turn them into ineffective training. Example: extreme karate ' s Bo staff twirling.

 

[renc]

Except mma is not a pond. It is a river. It draws from other martial arts and feeds back into them.

I like that analogy! Gonna steal it.

When it ceases to do that then you will have your issue.

Any system can do mma at any level using their own system using a combination or using mma. I mean we are starting to see medievil sword fighting in mma now.

This is why we can both do sanda against a guy who only trains in forms and see what happens.

I need to be more precise - by MMA I was referring the sport as per Rogan, not as a general principle.
MMA the sport draws from the ocean. My impression is that sample is small relative to the ocean, so my issue remains the conclusions that can *potentially* be drawn are fairly limited in scope.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Machida has too much non-Karate influence (he's also a black belt in Bjj).

Additionally he's past his prime.

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Ha, Ha.... I said just that some months ago here & the east coast ridiculed my post....

 

[Hanzou]

from what I understand in CMA those guys didn't care about competition as a sport. Some were known to be cruel and some were known for killing others in street fights. if you look back in history you'll see that this was common. The sport fighting that we know of today is tame compared to Rome's fighting arenas. China was at war with itself for a long time and and the communist government outlawed martial arts so citizens couldn't fight back. Things like that is what makes me think that those fighting systems are valid. I don't think the system changed as much as the people changed. We even see this worth how some people trash valid fighting systems and turn them into ineffective training. Example: extreme karate ' s Bo staff twirling.

In Asia, CMA practitioners have no issue entering NHB tournaments.

They just don't do very well.

 

[renc]

Yeah but you are not making the weird logic jump though. Where you validate your untested methods with stories about street or lineage or that sort of junk. And that is where it goes.

Ok Mma(or whatever but let's keep is simple) as a test of effectiveness is not an exhaustive test. But that does not validate no testing or conclusions based on dogma. What it does is test under a certain set of conditions. When you spar your kata friends it is a test under a certain set of conditions.

Agreed.

Eventually you start to build a trend. There is absolutely enough information for statistical analysis. Especially the amount of information we are getting at the moment.

For sure there is a lot of data out there.
As a first step then someone would define a testable hypothesis with stated justifiable assumptions, that itself may be a tough problem.
Decide what measurements will be taken.
Analysis. Observational data is messy at the best of times. I feel this data is far from the best of times. So you'd want to factor out unwanted influences or otherwise include them in your model, and account for sample variation.
Test your hypothesis against others, decide which best explains the data, decide whether the differences are significant, and account for model-data discrepancies.
Interpret, draw inferences.
Conclusions. Writeup. Publish.

Personally - I don't think it's possible to compare martial art systems this way, in a way that is both logical/meaningful and not overly limited. I can't see many getting past problem definition. But it would be interesting if someone gave it a serious go. Until then, folks chucking around 'more effective' like it's meaningful and even scientifically proven - well, whatever.

Now mma is not tested on the street.(well again there is quite a bit of data. But we just pretend there isn't) this does not make the link that therefore krav (just keeping it simple) does work on the street. Even if we say IDF or something or train in camouflage pants.

Does chi balls work?
Well it has been tested scientifically and has so far failed to.

But have we tried it on the street? Well no so therefore it must work.

Yeah

 

[ShotoNoob]

BY TMA STANDARDS, THIS POSITION IS BUNK.

It's been done, and they have. But, you have to modify the way you train, and also cross train.

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The fallacy of this was completely made plain in my Bertel kumite vid. Bertel's opponent is coming out just as you say.... repeating technique he's seen demonstrated in kumite competition.... Then the guy is completely flummoxed against Bertel's dynamic response....
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There's people doing karate form / and then there's people doing karate.
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Your statement's 1st 2 sentences are applicable to that group doing karate in physical form. Probably at least 75% of the karate participants; so in terms of percentages of the populace your statement (1st two) is correct. And attractive as a marketing approach.

Guys like Lyoto Machida do very well because they train for the medium, and are aware of the gaps in their training that must be filled.

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This is the part that is complete bunk..... Completely. This dogma has been blasted all over the internet since the origins of the UFC. NOW is 'written in stone,' from being blabbed & rehabbed so incredibly often. Every Laptop mMA observer recants the same rhetoric over & over.
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TRUTH: Guys like Machida do well 'cause of their traditional karate base. Guys like Machida fall short because they train to physical form & conventions instead of to principles....

Once again, it's the training model, not the techniques. If styles fall down, it's likely because there is a lack of practical feedback given to the students.

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Great again for self advocacy. Styles fall down because those training don't understand what TMA is doing in it's approach. Styles fall down because students aren't serious or dedicated, or the instructor same. Of course feedback playS into that dynamic.

The association fallacy at work. I train BJJ and Ryan Hall trains BJJ, therefore, I can do what Ryan Hall does. Student A and Lyoto Machida are black belts in Shotokan Karate. Lyoto Machida is successful using his Shotokan Karate in MMA. Therefore, student A will also be successful in MMA. Doesn't hold up.

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I would hope not. If so, we should close all the institutions of higher learning. Yet what you say is much too often the UNDISCIPLINED attitude we see in sports... Again, good marketing dogma....
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Edit: And in McDojo's too.

It works for self defense, too. I am learning "Style A" from my instructor. My instructor is able to use style A to successfully defend himself. Ergo, I am able to defend myself. Doesn't work.

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Doesn't AUTOMATICALLY work. Shake it out, Steve: shake it out.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

In Asia, CMA practitioners have no issue entering NHB tournaments.

They just don't do very well.

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Well, what about my TKD McDojang[?]. How's for a testable hypothesis?
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The kung fu guys in your vid vs. the guys in my TKD backfist break fail vid.... Now there is match the UFC could appreciate.... TKD fail club, good luck with that....