drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You have absolutely no idea how unsurprised I am that you do not understand what is being discussed
Joe rogan.
Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu
- Thread starter TSDTexan
- Start date
Joe rogan.
Sorry, your post though didn't look as if you were quoting anyone, it looked for all the world as if it was your words. There was a name on one line but no quotation marks. I read it and thought it was your words. Not that I know what's correct or not I hasten to add, not my subject.
You need to 'signal' that a quotation is coming up and 'signal' which it is as well as naming the person it's from eg.... According to Chris Parker "As far as Saigo Shiro and Yokoyama Sakujiro, we've dealt with Saigo, but Yokoyama is a slightly different case." I'm sure you know other ways as well, sometimes you just have to dot the i's and cross the t's to make things easier to understand.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
(Sigh). Dude. You really want to keep going?
Sure. Can't help but notice you're still trying to argue, though…
You presented them. They were given as your reasons for your beliefs. They were completely flawed from the ground up. The fact that you presented them as your stance (with the words of others… again) means that, yeah, I'm going to correct them as such.
A poor reporter who doesn't fact check properly, doesn't properly attribute citations as required (honestly, I think the amount you copy-paste without credit goes somewhat against the fair-use restrictions…) is just as worthy of correction as the person who first said it.
I was correcting you. I was hoping you would realise that, after your sourced material was shown to be so incredibly lacking, you would come to the realisation that, frankly, you're out of your depth in these conversations. And, maybe, to come to some understanding of the topic before committing to such false claims.
HA! Dude… I'm going to spell it out to you, then.
Daito Ryu was created/founded/invented by Takeda Sokaku. It did not exist prior to the late 19th Century. It does not have a 700 year old history, it does not come from the Minamoto, and it most certainly did not "rise to the top… like cream".
Seriously, stop now. You're just embarrassing yourself.
No, mate. Fusen Ryu has never had a ne-waza syllabus. At all. Ever. I'm not arguing from silence, by the way, I'm arguing from the position of gaining information from practitioners of the ryu-ha itself.
For the record, this is Fusen Ryu:
Note that suwari gata and osae komi waza are not ne waza…
This is also Fusen Ryu:
Again, no ne waza.
No, it wasn't. If you can provide any evidence that there was, you will have done something that people searching for years haven't been able to find. There have been many claims, but no evidence whatsoever.
You do know that Tanabe's nickname of "Ne-waza Tanabe" was because he was smaller than most of the other students, and found that the best way to not be thrown was to already drop onto his backside underneath them, and fight from there… as part of his randori? It was his personal expression, not part of Fusen Ryu itself. Additionally, it was something he worked on personally at his personal dojo (the Handa dojo), which was not a Fusen Ryu dojo itself.
No, I haven't "already made up my mind"… I've been studying and researching this area (classical Japanese arts) for years now. And, bluntly, nothing you presented was even credible, let alone something that would get me to reconsider anything.
And I said that where, exactly? You're the only one who brought Maeda into this… as your attempt to show some connection between Daito Ryu and BJJ… which doesn't exist.
Your idea was that Daito Ryu -> Takeuchi Ryu -> Judo -> Kosen Judo -> BJJ… except that Daito Ryu did not form any part of the basis of Takenouchi Ryu, as it didn't exist until some 350 years after Takenouchi Ryu was founded, Takenouchi Ryu was not part of the makeup of Judo, as, well, it simply wasn't, and Kosen Judo hadn't been created by the time the practitioners such as Maeda left Japan themselves.
In other words, your entire argument was flawed at each and every step.
Dude… Kosen Judo is High School Judo. It has always been High School Judo. That's what it means… "Kosen" (高専) is an abbreviation of essentially what are tech colleges ("Koto senmon gakko" 高等専門学校), for kids from about 15-20 years old. And there aren't really any techniques in Kosen Judo that aren't in "regular" Judo… as it really, really is just a different ruleset. It, like the rest of Judo, has evolved over it's time, from allowing leg locks to disallowing all joint locks except elbow locks (in line with "regular" Judo).
Dude… "facts"?!?!
Here's the thing. I mentioned your ideas to another practitioner familiar with these systems. His response? "For fecks sake…".
That about sums up the response from anyone who knows the first thing about this topic. Your "facts" aren't.
No, mate, I'm just more aware of this area. You can either learn from this, or you can continue to get huffy.
Sure. Can't help but notice you're still trying to argue, though…
You presented them. They were given as your reasons for your beliefs. They were completely flawed from the ground up. The fact that you presented them as your stance (with the words of others… again) means that, yeah, I'm going to correct them as such.
A poor reporter who doesn't fact check properly, doesn't properly attribute citations as required (honestly, I think the amount you copy-paste without credit goes somewhat against the fair-use restrictions…) is just as worthy of correction as the person who first said it.
I was correcting you. I was hoping you would realise that, after your sourced material was shown to be so incredibly lacking, you would come to the realisation that, frankly, you're out of your depth in these conversations. And, maybe, to come to some understanding of the topic before committing to such false claims.
HA! Dude… I'm going to spell it out to you, then.
Daito Ryu was created/founded/invented by Takeda Sokaku. It did not exist prior to the late 19th Century. It does not have a 700 year old history, it does not come from the Minamoto, and it most certainly did not "rise to the top… like cream".
Seriously, stop now. You're just embarrassing yourself.
No, mate. Fusen Ryu has never had a ne-waza syllabus. At all. Ever. I'm not arguing from silence, by the way, I'm arguing from the position of gaining information from practitioners of the ryu-ha itself.
For the record, this is Fusen Ryu:
Note that suwari gata and osae komi waza are not ne waza…
This is also Fusen Ryu:
Again, no ne waza.
No, it wasn't. If you can provide any evidence that there was, you will have done something that people searching for years haven't been able to find. There have been many claims, but no evidence whatsoever.
You do know that Tanabe's nickname of "Ne-waza Tanabe" was because he was smaller than most of the other students, and found that the best way to not be thrown was to already drop onto his backside underneath them, and fight from there… as part of his randori? It was his personal expression, not part of Fusen Ryu itself. Additionally, it was something he worked on personally at his personal dojo (the Handa dojo), which was not a Fusen Ryu dojo itself.
No, I haven't "already made up my mind"… I've been studying and researching this area (classical Japanese arts) for years now. And, bluntly, nothing you presented was even credible, let alone something that would get me to reconsider anything.
And I said that where, exactly? You're the only one who brought Maeda into this… as your attempt to show some connection between Daito Ryu and BJJ… which doesn't exist.
Your idea was that Daito Ryu -> Takeuchi Ryu -> Judo -> Kosen Judo -> BJJ… except that Daito Ryu did not form any part of the basis of Takenouchi Ryu, as it didn't exist until some 350 years after Takenouchi Ryu was founded, Takenouchi Ryu was not part of the makeup of Judo, as, well, it simply wasn't, and Kosen Judo hadn't been created by the time the practitioners such as Maeda left Japan themselves.
In other words, your entire argument was flawed at each and every step.
Dude… Kosen Judo is High School Judo. It has always been High School Judo. That's what it means… "Kosen" (高専) is an abbreviation of essentially what are tech colleges ("Koto senmon gakko" 高等専門学校), for kids from about 15-20 years old. And there aren't really any techniques in Kosen Judo that aren't in "regular" Judo… as it really, really is just a different ruleset. It, like the rest of Judo, has evolved over it's time, from allowing leg locks to disallowing all joint locks except elbow locks (in line with "regular" Judo).
Dude… "facts"?!?!
Here's the thing. I mentioned your ideas to another practitioner familiar with these systems. His response? "For fecks sake…".
That about sums up the response from anyone who knows the first thing about this topic. Your "facts" aren't.
No, mate, I'm just more aware of this area. You can either learn from this, or you can continue to get huffy.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Kosen is actually a contraction of:
Koutogakko 高等学校 = High School
PLUS
Senmongakko 専門学校 = Technical or Professional College
EQUALS
Koutosenmongakko 高等専門学校 = High Schools & Universities i.e. "Scholastic," in this case referring to what we might label an Interscholastic Judo League.
“Kosen” is an abbreviation for koto senmongakko, which is, in turn, a compound of two words— “koto gakko” meaning “senior high-school” and “senmon gakko” meaning “professional or technical university.” Specifically, the term “Kosen” refers to a network of prestigious prep schools and universities. It is analogous to the American phrase “the ivy league.”
In the early 1900s, when rules for Judo competition weretaking form, the rules that came to be used for interscholastic contests in this “ivy league” tended to encourage and reward newaza more than rules used elsewhere. As a consequence, Kosen newaza tactics became highly developed and refined.
So Kosen judo is not something distinct and separate from Kodokan Judo; rather it is one of the many varieties of judo within the Kodokan tradition. As such Kosen judo could not defeat Kodokan Judo, because Kosen judois Kodokan Judo.
Koutogakko 高等学校 = High School
PLUS
Senmongakko 専門学校 = Technical or Professional College
EQUALS
Koutosenmongakko 高等専門学校 = High Schools & Universities i.e. "Scholastic," in this case referring to what we might label an Interscholastic Judo League.
“Kosen” is an abbreviation for koto senmongakko, which is, in turn, a compound of two words— “koto gakko” meaning “senior high-school” and “senmon gakko” meaning “professional or technical university.” Specifically, the term “Kosen” refers to a network of prestigious prep schools and universities. It is analogous to the American phrase “the ivy league.”
In the early 1900s, when rules for Judo competition weretaking form, the rules that came to be used for interscholastic contests in this “ivy league” tended to encourage and reward newaza more than rules used elsewhere. As a consequence, Kosen newaza tactics became highly developed and refined.
So Kosen judo is not something distinct and separate from Kodokan Judo; rather it is one of the many varieties of judo within the Kodokan tradition. As such Kosen judo could not defeat Kodokan Judo, because Kosen judois Kodokan Judo.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Robert Picardo
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Joe rogan the guy that made his money watching people eat bull testicles ? Yeah his opinion should be held in high regard
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You can see how that alters the reality of the martial artist moving away from functionality and into dogma based training. If Joe Rogan has a point against tma. That should have been it.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
History is not the art, it is information about the art.
Even if there is debate about who did or did not do what and when... It is NOT the art itself.
In fact colored belts, and/or ranks on paper are not "the art" in and of itself. They are tools to help the process of transmission of things pertaining to the art in class.
A naked man can use his art if circumstances require, clothing, is not the art either.
Back to the point:
A dictionary entry about Haiku... Is not the art of Haiku.
In the same way... Discussions about history of a MA or collection of MAs is not the art.
You have offered a straw man argument, while comparing an apple with an orange.
So your point is bupkis.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Depends on your focus.
The art can be defined by its history or the history can be a fun fact.
Linage quite often validates technique. Seen that happen before.
This is not my first rodeo. I know where a linage conversation goes.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Technique validates itself. Either it works or it doesn't.
A real kido technique for breaking a wrist will always break a wrist. If.. It is correctly applied.
The wrist only can move so many degrees in one direction before it breaks.
A bogus kido technique is one that if applied "correctly" and does not break the wrist, and/or it cannot be applied outside of theory.
Lineage has no bearing on validation with regards to this.
Again, Art is more than technique.
Not sure if I'm following your line of logic here.
If a properly applied wrist-lock should always end in a broken wrist, it would seem that I've never learned how to do a proper wrist lock! I guess my Aikido teacher has been holding out on me! I would ask him to show me, but I don't want to get my wrist broken.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Not sure if I'm following your line of logic here.
If a properly applied wrist-lock should always end in a broken wrist, it would seem that I've never learned how to do a proper wrist lock! I guess my Aikido teacher has been holding out on me! I would ask him to show me, but I don't want to get my wrist broken.
Reading for context.
A real kido technique for breaking a wrist will always break a wrist. If.. It is correctly applied.
Please allow me to help clarify what has been said.
This technique if applied correctly, will break a wrist.
However, I do not really want to break a wrist, so I will "incorrectly" perform the technique at reduced speed and power, while allowing my Uke to flip with the technique.
If someone would like to have their wrist broken, so everyone can see it done "correctly" please step forward, anand I will humor you. And you will fall months behind in your training.
Please also, dont quote me, and then refer to a word I didn't use. "Wrist-Lock" I am sure you know how to do a few.
Did your Sensei teach you a technique called a wrist lock? Then yes, you know how to do a wristlock.
Some day he might teach you something explicitly called a "wrist break".
You know there are a lot of high level techniques that are reserved for later in the journey, after one shows a lot of common sense and self control.
And yes, you can break a joint, such as a wrist using a lock.
If your Sensei says Aikido has no wrist breaks, thats kinda sad because I know a couple Hapkido Dans who know em.
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OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Well your question is like what is "real burger"?
For the purposes of the current thread, and in the context I used the phrase...
It is the way of doing any technique, from any TMA, shuch as Chin Na, Daito Ryu Aiki-jūjutsu, Hapkido/Hapkiyosool, Hapkido, Aikido, or Tapi-Tapi from FMA, that redirects motion or energy (but is not limited to) for the purposes of joint manipulation or destruction. Seizing Holding, or maiming even killing. Ala neck cranks....
I think Tez's question was in regards to your term "kido." I was wondering what you were referring to as well.
Without any reference, it looks like you were referring to Hapkido / Aikido? I've never heard of any art, or group of arts referred to as 気道 (ki-dou) in Japanese or Chinese, and if I were to read that word without any kind of context, I would guess it to be some kind of chi-gong method.
So, we were just wondering what this term refers to.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Again, it is like the word "burger". There are different places that make burgers. You got McDonald's that people claim are burgers... Then you got In/Out Burger.... which is a really good burger... and in some places you got Carls Jr. Burgers... man can they make a burger.
I tend to spend more time with Korean MA folks then anyone else... say for example... Brazilians, or Japanese. I am admittedly influenced and I don't always want to specify Aikido_Hapkido_Hankido_DRAJJ_Chin-Na when just saying "kido" will work for my purposes. Just saying burger is general enough to let someone know thats what you wanna eat.
Hey, let's have Pizza guys... No, I want burgers!
Here is some usage of that word Kido. From admittedly KMA folks...
In 1951, Bok-Seob Seo designed the first symbol of the first Hapkido school's martial art, which was used to denote the art was the inverted arrowhead design featured in both the modern incarnation of the KiDo Association and by Myung Kwang-Sik's World Hapkido Federation.
There is also the U.S. Kido hae.
And then the Korea Kido Association
Also there is the World Kido Association
World Kido Federation
When folks hear the sound "Kido" when I ask them about martial arts... they often respond: "Wait... that's what Stephen Segal does right?"
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Ok, explanations aren't making sense so asked a young friend of mine this is what he came up with Kid - Bleach Wiki - Your guide to the Bleach manga and anime series
Methinks plain English would serve better because 'kido' isn't working for your purposes.
Methinks plain English would serve better because 'kido' isn't working for your purposes.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
40 year background in TMA with a little more of that in CMA so...... a Long time Chinese martial arts guy here, trained a fair share of Qinna to and I have to tell you I have never heard of the term "kido" applied to Qinna or anything else in TMA...that is unless I heard someone call someone else kiddo.....
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
/sigh
Tez3...
Have you considered reading words Aikido, Hapkido, Hapkido and guessing what part of there name they have in common?
Can you understand using that as a generic term to refer to techniques from arts that use similar biomechanics?
Or do I really need to specify each and every applicable art's name and put hyphens between them.
If so... This would be what it might look like.
Back to the original statement:
"Technique validates itself. Either it works or it doesn't.
A real kido [as in Hapkido, Aiki-jūjutsu, Chin Na, Aikido, Hapkido] technique for breaking a wrist will always break a wrist. If.. It is correctly applied.
The wrist only can move so many degrees in one direction before it breaks.
A bogus kido technique is one that if applied "correctly" and does not break the wrist, and/or it cannot be applied outside of theory."
