Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

Master Xue Sheng,
There is no need to care, but this website is a place to have both shallow conversations (small talk) as like about the weather. And to have deep meaningful conversations. His relevance is very subjective. But there are many who are influenced by his words. And since silence is often considered to be agreement... I voice my disagreement with him, in hopes of having a dialog to offer rebuttal against his publically held view points.

 

[Drose427]

Master Xue Sheng,
There is no need to care, but this website is a place to have both shallow conversations (small talk) as like about the weather. And to have deep meaningful conversations. His relevance is very subjective. But there are many who are influenced by his words. And since silence is often considered to be agreement... I voice my disagreement with him, in hopes of having a dialog to offer rebuttal against his publically held view points.

I would always question his relevance on anything not BJJ(possibly anything not MT included here as well)

He competed in Kukki-TKD, but wasnt a high level practitioner(state champ, national champ, etc as awarded by NGB). Nor are any videos or pictures of him doing TKD anything you cant find at kukki schools across the country. He also apparently couldnt keep his hands up when he started kickboxing (something various WTF'ers in MMA and kickboxing have had no issues with). So while you could consider him relevant to kukki-TKD, he isnt for all other TKD. Which fights very differently.

Honestly, I question his relevance (and right) to critique the fighters techs or decisions

He's like that friend who played madden and rec league football, and critiques and criticizes professional players. Sometimes I think he forgets theyre in a different league than himself, Dana too for that matter.

Just let it go, itll bother you a lot less when you do

 

[Xue Sheng]

Master Xue Sheng,

Since I am not a master of anything, just Xue will be fine,

There is no need to care, but this website is a place to have both shallow conversations (small talk) as like about the weather. And to have deep meaningful conversations. His relevance is very subjective. But there are many who are influenced by his words. And since silence is often considered to be agreement... I voice my disagreement with him, in hopes of having a dialog to offer rebuttal against his publically held view points.

That's fine, as for me, I still see no reason to care what Joe Rogan says...because "sometimes" silence is the best response since it gives them nothing to rail against and then...they go away

 

[Chrisoro]

Dissing other arts in order to emphasize how great the one(s) oneself is training, is probably as old as martial arts in itself. Joe Rogan is entiteled to his opinion, and if others base their choices on his opinions without doing their own research, it is their loss. In other words, nothing new to see here, moving on.

 

[Hanzou]

Says it doesn't work.

But he ignores the navy seal that got KOd by a Shaolin fighter, in a boxing ring.

He didn't say it doesn't work. He says that the training methodology of many TMAs work against them, and he's right. Many TMAs don't even practice hard sparring, and as Steve mentioned, will retain outdated/outmoded techniques just for the sake of tradition. These techniques are never tested in a live format, and when the time comes for the student to use those techniques, they can't do it.

We've seen the results of this over and over again. Whether its the UFC, in the challenge matches from the 60s and 70s where boxers beat the crap out of karate guys, or in full contact street fights between TMA stylists where they sloppily slap each other until they both end up on the ground. Katas and legends of your master beating 20 ninjas means nothing. It's all about adopting modern training methods, and retaining what works and getting rid of what doesn't work.

Prime example; Bjj schools adopting wrestling takedowns and Sambo leg locks. At my school we teach double leg takedowns exactly the way wrestlers do them (because we learn them from wrestlers).

Why? Because they work.

 

[Argus]

He didn't say it doesn't work. He says that the training methodology of many TMAs work against them, and he's right. Many TMAs don't even practice hard sparring, and as Steve mentioned, will retain outdated/outmoded techniques just for the sake of tradition. These techniques are never tested in a live format, and when the time comes for the student to use those techniques, they can't do it.

I'd say that's largely a modern phenomenon in TMA's, actually. Though, it does depend on the culture and context.

In, for example, a Chinese, Filipino, or Okinawan context, putting one's training to the test and re-evaluating it from those experiences was very common place. But, in more modern times where violence is less tolerated and held more legally accountable, there has ceased to become an outlet for this kind of combat, and most TMA's are not really suited for, or interested in training for a sportive context. As an interesting aside, I will say that some TMA practitioners get around this with unique formats, such as The Dog Brothers.

So, much of the pragmatic practice of traditional martial arts has given way to more of a hobbyist approach, simply carrying on the knowledge of the art without really gaining practical experience in applying it -- and with that, much understanding is lost over time as less experienced practitioners "reinvent" the art to fill in gaps in their experience and understanding.

If you look at TMA's that retain a lot of relevance in their modern day environments, and are less removed in time, you'll find that they're trained more pragmatically. Take many FMA systems, for example. While some are not trained so practical, many are quite down to earth and practiced very pragmatically. That's largely because they're still relevant to this day in many of the contexts where they're practiced, and are not very far removed from a time and place where knives, sticks, swords, and machetes were (and in some places, still are) very commonly used in crime, conflict, and duels. Give it a century or so, and I'm sure it will start to look much more like other traditional martial arts, with more focus on the "art" side of things than the "martial" side.

But, none of this is to say that most TMA's don't retain very good systems. It's just up to the practitioner to practice the art in a pragmatic way for the context in which they intend to use it, or for the context it was originally developed for.

 

[Steve]

Just to remind everyone, we still don't have any real context. A lot of conclusions being drawn about joe Rogan based on not a lot of information.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd say that's largely a modern phenomenon in TMA's, actually. Though, it does depend on the culture and context.

In, for example, a Chinese, Filipino, or Okinawan context, putting one's training to the test and re-evaluating it from those experiences was very common place. But, in more modern times where violence is less tolerated and held more legally accountable, there has ceased to become an outlet for this kind of combat, and most TMA's are not really suited for, or interested in training for a sportive context. As an interesting aside, I will say that some TMA practitioners get around this with unique formats, such as The Dog Brothers.

So, much of the pragmatic practice of traditional martial arts has given way to more of a hobbyist approach, simply carrying on the knowledge of the art without really gaining practical experience in applying it -- and with that, much understanding is lost over time as less experienced practitioners "reinvent" the art to fill in gaps in their experience and understanding.

If you look at TMA's that retain a lot of relevance in their modern day environments, and are less removed in time, you'll find that they're trained more pragmatically. Take many FMA systems, for example. While some are not trained so practical, many are quite down to earth and practiced very pragmatically. That's largely because they're still relevant to this day in many of the contexts where they're practiced, and are not very far removed from a time and place where knives, sticks, swords, and machetes were (and in some places, still are) very commonly used in crime, conflict, and duels. Give it a century or so, and I'm sure it will start to look much more like other traditional martial arts, with more focus on the "art" side of things than the "martial" side.

But, none of this is to say that most TMA's don't retain very good systems. It's just up to the practitioner to practice the art in a pragmatic way for the context in which they intend to use it, or for the context it was originally developed for.

If you have to take a pragmatic approach outside of your style's approach in order to make it effective, your art isn't a good system. Your art should be pragmatic by nature.

 

[Argus]

If you have to take a pragmatic approach outside of your style's approach in order to make it effective, your art isn't a good system. Your art should be pragmatic by nature.

I don't know about that. While training pragmatically from the get-go is the more constructive method, it's not as if other training can't be put to good use and set a foundation for your own development.

This is just a matter of how systems -- any system, is passed down in a more formalized manner. Take, for instance, programming courses that you might take in college. They're terribly abstract and don't really give you experience in writing any kind of realistic program that you might want to create. They just give you very formalized knowledge, and very formal methods and exercises, without really having you learn to apply them. It's not until you get out into the real world that you really learn to program not just as an abstract exercise, but in order to actually meet real-world demands, and that's an adjustment that most people have a hard time making, while a few are much more quick to make the transition.

The same goes for learning languages formally or informally, in my experience. And the same goes for martial arts. The difference between those who make the connection between learning and application is that the ones who are able to do so practice, play with, and pursue using and applying their target system outside of their formal education, giving them a full range of not only knowledge, but understanding and practical experience.

But, one cannot argue the value of more formal / traditional / abstract training. Programmers who have, for instance, taken such classes, generally have a more solid and well rounded grasp of good form and proper practices in programming, which may be found lacking in programmers who learned more haphazardly and are more experienced than educated. I can attest to this personally, as I fit in the latter category, and often discover deficiencies that I wouldn't have if I'd had a more solid educational foundation in programming and computer science. Yet, I'm still a very productive and pragmatic programmer, in the sense that I get things done, even if I don't always do them in the best way. If I choose to further my education, I might have the best of both worlds.

I should clarify that I'm making up my own definition for "formal training" here. Please keep in mind that I am refering to systems that have been codified and are practiced in formal, abstract methods that can be classified as "traditional." I'm not suggesting that all formal training is removed from application, or that non-traditional methods cannot be classified as "formal."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Failings? he was a really good TKD practitioner where is the failing in that?

His failings was not understanding TKD vs other fighting styles. He even said so himself, that TKD practitioners kick with their hands down and that his hands were weak. I know that TKD has punches because it's in their forms. This means that he or his instructor just didn't put much value in punching. I don't think TKD lacks handskills. I just think many schools don't emphasize it. If these guys are punching then why not the other

Stuff like this will get you killed

No matter the style that people use to fight, they have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the style that they are fighting against. If a person understands their style then they can adjust their style so that they are better able to deal with them. Joe can't blame his fighting style if he fail to make adjustments.
Raymond Daniels failing to keep his distance from a grappler. The grappler understanding that his advantage isn't striking fakes a punch to close the gap.

Martial Arts alone is not silver bullet to success.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why should I care what Joe Rogan's opinion of Traditional Martial Arts is? Because to be honest I don't much care and an entire post dedicated to his opinion seems to give him some sort of relevance that he in fact does not have.

Joe himself isn't relevant. It's his statement that is misleading and not true of all TMAs. Being that this is a Martial Arts forum. People can either let bad information flourish and mislead everyone or people can bring insight.

I train in Jow Ga Kung Fu which is a TMA (but not the loose definition that goes with TMA). I know for a fact that Jow Ga is fight tested and that anyone who trains to use it in an actual fight (not just practice the forms) will have no problem going against another style or even using it as a realistic self-defense. As far as the posts go. I see more about martial arts than about Joe.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Joe himself isn't relevant. It's his statement that is misleading and not true of all TMAs. Being that this is a Martial Arts forum. People can either let bad information flourish and mislead everyone or people can bring insight.

I train in Jow Ga Kung Fu which is a TMA (but not the loose definition that goes with TMA). I know for a fact that Jow Ga is fight tested and that anyone who trains to use it in an actual fight (not just practice the forms) will have no problem going against another style or even using it as a realistic self-defense. As far as the posts go. I see more about martial arts than about Joe.

Again that, is fine and you will get no argument from me... I just see little relevance in Joe Rogan as it applies to TMA and I guess I am way to old school CMA to care about the other arguments, I know what Xingyiquan and Taijiquan are capable of and that is good enough for me...like my sifu, I see little reason to be concerned with what others think.. and I am a long time TCMA guy (Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and looking at Yiquan)

I will however admit this attitude has taken time to get here..... it only appeared something after I passed the half century mark after close to 40 years in TMA (not all Chinese) and some non-TMA styles

 

[TSDTexan]

Again that, is fine and you will get no argument from me... I just see little relevance in Joe Rogan as it applies to TMA and I guess I am way to old school CMA to care about the other arguments, I know what Xingyiquan and Taijiquan are capable of and that is good enough for me...like my sifu, I see little reason to be concerned with what others think.. and I am a long time TCMA guy (Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and looking at Yiquan)

I will however admit this attitude has taken time to get here..... it only appeared something after I passed the half century mark after close to 40 years in TMA (not all Chinese) and some non-TMA styles

Xue, I have a question for you... If a man has not developed faculty in using Dantien and cannot send chi to parts of his body, say.... A fist while punching... Then He is a hard stylist reduced to using only the power of muscle, tendeons and sinew and joints. Correct?

There is a Korean Shaolin artist who did a jumping double knife hand strike and broke a truck leaf spring (big flat piece of steel) at a demonstration at a tournament in the 1980s....
His body was pretty depleted of Chi, and a shard bounced back off the floor, and nicked his wrist.

The demo was incredibly demoralizing for students of other schools, and the Korean's students pretty much swept the tournament.

I know for a fact, chi is real... But why is it so rarely used in real world fighting? It it because it would cause techiques to kill or maim?

There are many who challenge the idea of a Martial Art that focuses training time on something that they perceive to be a deception perpetrated on the weak minded.

I have also seen chi manipulation done on a person that caused them to collapse. And that person absolutely did not believe it could be done, and volunteered to have it done... Trying to bust the Chi manipulater.

So why, is there no presence of anyone willing to fight in a challenge match, and prove the skeptical critics wrong?

I understand you prefer to answer the critics with silence.
Is it just because of the Eastern mindset? Remain calm, be at peace within and without? Therefore, dont argue with a fool because someone passing by will see two fools arguing?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, I have a question for you... If a man has not developed faculty in using Dantien and cannot send chi to parts of his body, say.... A fist while punching... Then He is a hard stylist reduced to using only the power of muscle, tendeons and sinew and joints. Correct?

There is a Korean Shaolin artist who did a jumping double knife hand strike and broke a truck leaf spring (big flat piece of steel) at a demonstration at a tournament in the 1980s....
His body was pretty depleted of Chi, and a shard bounced back off the floor, and nicked his wrist.

The demo was incredibly demoralizing for students of other schools, and the Korean's students pretty much swept the tournament.

I know for a fact, chi is real... But why is it so rarely used in real world fighting? It it because it would cause techiques to kill or maim?

There are many who challenge the idea of a Martial Art that focuses training time on something that they perceive to be a deception perpetrated on the weak minded.

I have also seen chi manipulation done on a person that caused them to collapse. And that person absolutely did not believe it could be done, and volunteered to have it done... Trying to bust the Chi manipulater.

So why, is there no presence of anyone willing to fight in a challenge match, and prove the skeptical critics wrong?

I understand you prefer to answer the critics with silence.
Is it just because of the Eastern mindset? Remain calm, be at peace within and without? Therefore, dont argue with a fool because someone passing by will see two fools arguing?

As for the internal vs. external thing, to me it is a false category since, when done correctly, they end up in the same place. Old CMA saying, "internal goes to external and external goes to internal"

Done a lot of arguing in my time, and at times still do, but not as much as in my youth. I just don't see this as something to argue about, it will not change anyone's opinion, they likely agreed or disagreed with Mr. Rogan going into this and they will likely agree or disagree when it is done.

As for qi, I am a long time Internal martial artist, mostly taijiquan, and I have seen it used in a fight, but it does not mean it will kill someone, if one can only use qi to kill someone, then I would say they either are not really using qi or do not understand it.

As for the demoralization, I do not see, by your description, why they were demoralized at all. I got my butt kicked by a southern mantis guy many years ago and it was one of the coolest learning experiences I have had. A good friend of mine was very good at TKD and he taught me a lot by not kicking me in the head when he could have. As the old saying goes, invest in loss. Any demoralization that comes from that is ego, that is all IMHO

 

[tigercrane]

As for the internal vs. external thing, to me it is a false category since, when done correctly, they end up in the same place. Old CMA saying, "internal goes to external and external goes to internal"

Very well said Xue. There are no external or internal arts, at least not in CMA. In the scape of TCMA I have yet to discover about one style that is not working with chi. In the past I thought southern styles were devoid of internal component up until I saw how this was part of many of them such as Pak Mei and Hung Ga to name some.

Within the context of this thread, I'd be curious about your thoughts on Bagua if any. Thanks!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are no external or internal arts, ...

Except when I see clip like this, it bothers me big time. Sometime I even feel embarrassing to tell people that I train Taiji too.

 

[drop bear]

Since I am not a master of anything, just Xue will be fine,



That's fine, as for me, I still see no reason to care what Joe Rogan says...because "sometimes" silence is the best response since it gives them nothing to rail against and then...they go away

I too am going to express how much I don't care and post about how silent I am being about the whole topic.

Here is a picture of Joe rogan so that I may better ignore him. And therefore deny him the attention he so obviously craves.





Joe rogan.

 

[Chris Parker]

And I don't believe for a second that the reason is always, always, always pragmatic and practical. Maybe at one time. Sure. Or I wouldn't be traditional.

Honestly, Steve, you lost me there… can't quite follow the syntax of what you're saying. Maybe one what at a time? Or you wouldn't be traditional? Can you rephrase this, cause… I'm lost.

TSD Texan, on the other hand… gotta say, thanks! I haven't laughed like that for a while!

You do know that most of what you posted is complete tripe, and that you're referencing people with no credibility, yeah? Let's take a look…

I will oblige you.

Okay… this'll be fun…

(1) Kano studied Takeuchi Ryu.

No, he didn't. At all. In no line.

Er… you do know that only one line of Takenouchi Ryu use the pronunciation "Takeuchi", yeah? Do you know which one…?

(1b) Takano, Yano, Kotaro Imei, and Hikasuburo Ohshima were all close colleagues of Kano, and participated in the construction of the Kodokan syllabus and kata.

No.

Look, for one thing, the order of the names is inconsistent… either use the Japanese form (family name, then personal), or the Western (given name, then family name). Here, it's all messed up… Yano's proper name (Japanese order) it Yano Takano… putting a comma between his first, then family name makes no sense for a Western publication. It's like naming me as "Chris, Parker", as opposed to "Parker, Chris" (which might make some sense). Imai (not Imei) is presented in a Western order (Japanese - Imai Kotaro), and Oshima's name again follows the Western order.

Next, these three gents were from two different Takenouchi lines… Oshima and Imai were from Takenouchi Ryu itself (Sodenke line, I believe), whereas Yano was from the Takenouchi Santo Ryu… which split very early on from the "main" Takenouchi line. And while they all certainly knew of each other, with Kano at the centre, to say that they participated in the construction of the Kodokan syllabus and kata is rather… well… wrong. Especially as there are no Takenouchi kata found in Judo at all (there are kata from other systems), nor does Takenouchi show any influence in any of Judo's syllabus at all. In fact, the most prominent association is that these men were at a number of functions and demonstrations for the Kodokan… but never as any part of the Kodokan itself, instead as demonstrators of their ryu-ha. At the same demonstrations were people representing the Kodokan itself, Sekiguchi Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Sosuishitsu Ryu, Miura Ryu, Shiten Ryu, Fusen Ryu, and more.

But the point is that no, these gentlemen were not involved in the formation and construction of the Kodokan syllabus anymore than any of the others (and less than some).

Takeuchi Ryu is a comprehensive combat art, but is particularly well-known for bokken (wooden sword), jo (staff), and osae (immobilization) techniques.

Oh, please don't tell me you're trying to tell me what Takenouchi (Takeuchi) Ryu is… I mean… it's "particularly well known" as the oldest jujutsu centric ryu-ha in Japan… and far less known for it's buki syllabus… to the point that many don't realise that it has one, let alone as wide a collection as it has (seriously… umbrellas and cooking pot lids… it's all there!).

In other words, no, that's not what Takenouchi Ryu is "particularly well known for".

Takeuchi Ryu was derived from the Daito Ryu line, and was founded in June of 1532.

Oh, you've got to be kidding me here…

Look, there is absolutely no support for any claim of Daito Ryu predating Sokaku Takeda in the late 19th Century. None. There is no mention of it, there is no evidence of it, there is no record of it, and so on. The only thing to give any indication are the oral traditions of Daito Ryu itself… which came from Takeda. So the idea of a ryu-ha founded in 1532 being based in an art unheard of or not existing until they late 1800's is, well, questionable.

Then we have the complete lack of any reference to Daito Ryu in Takenouchi Ryu history and lineage. And we finalise it with the fact that these two ryu-ha, according to their histories, were on opposing sides of Honshu, with Daito Ryu in the East (Kai Province, present day Yamanashi Prefecture, just West of Tokyo), and Takenouchi Ryu in the West (present day Okayama Prefecture, North of Shikoku, West of Osaka, nearly at Hiroshima). And no, travelling between these provinces at that time would not have been easy… we are well before the Edo Jidai and Musha Shugyo… this was the Sengoku Jidai.

In other words, this is possibly the most ridiculous thing said in this post. There is no connection between Daito Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu until the 20th Century.

Chumutaki Hisamori Diasuke Takeuchi was a prince who lived in Okayama, and studied Daito-Ryu. He met an ancient warrior named Takagi (in a dream) who emphasized certain principles that were to underlie Takeuchi-Ryu. The school became known as the "Hinoshito Torido Kaizan Ryu," or "school of the supreme and unsurpassed art of combat."

According to the histories of Daito Ryu, taken such as they are, even they have no mention of being in Okayama Prefecture… so… no. It could also be mentioned that Takenouchi Hisamori was not a prince… he was a warrior, not royalty. It could also be pointed out that that's not the correct pronunciation of Takenouchi's name… it's not "Chumutaki", it's Nakatsukasa Taifu. There is also no mention of the name of the "mountain priest" Hisamori met, other than Hisamori thinking that he looked so fierce, he must be an incarnation of the God Atago himself… the usage of the name "Takagi" is both questionable and rather telling. I have no idea where that bizarre name "HInoshito Torido (Toride?) Kaizan Ryu" comes from… I've never come across it before in any of my dealings with the history of the Ryu at all.

The techniques of Takeuchi Ryu are divided into five kyo (teachings or principles), related to Takeda's Five Principles-ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and tokyo.

Uh… no, they aren't.

(2) Daito Ryu.
Kano had deep connections with the Takeda family who would later lead the school.

Uh… no, not really. Takeda Tokimune has said that his father (Takeda Sokaku) and Kano Jigoro were on good personal terms… that they would often visit each other when they found each other in their area… however, Kano never mentioned Daito Ryu, Takeda and his approach was almost diametrically opposed to Kano's, and Takeda himself showed little interest in Judo, saying that it "wasn't real budo, more like budo dancing".

Shiro Saigo was an adopted son of Tonomo Saigo, soke of this school before Takeda.

Well, first off, his name was Saigo Tanomo, not Tonomo… and by the time he met Takeda Sokaku, he'd taken the name Hoshina Chikanori to signify his new life as a priest. As far as his role in Daito Ryu is concerned, Sokaku is claimed to have learnt the Ryu initially from his father (Takeda Sokichi), and learnt other matters from Hoshina… although it was after Hoshina presented Sokaku with a poem signifying the teachings of Hoshina that Sokaku began referring to what he taught as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu… which would make it a synthesis of both Sokichi's and Hoshina's teachings. But no, Saigo Tanomo was not soke of Daito Ryu before Takeda Sokaku. What he was, rather, was the holder of the Oshikiuchi methods which he taught to Sokaku.

Of course, there are problems. Namely that there are no records or indications of Hoshina being particularly schooled (or schooled at all, really) in martial arts… and, while we basically only have Sokaku's word that he learnt Oshikiuchi from Hoshina, there is no mention of it being martial methods. For the record, the evidence against Hoshina being a martial artist includes his own diary…

One thing that's important to remember is that these stories are largely put forth by the so-called Saigo-ha… quasi-Daito Ryu groups that can't claim a connection to Takeda Sokaku… so they claim an unsubstantiated and questionable connection to Saigo Shiro… who, if we come to the understanding that his adopted father really wasn't anything to do with Daito Ryu, and couldn't have taught Shiro anything of it, had no connection to Daito Ryu either.

Shiro Saigo came to Tokyo at the age of 14 to seek Jujutsu instruction and pursued Kano because of his reputation. Later, he quit both the Kodokan and Daito Ryu when his conflicting obligations to the two masters led him to an impasse.

Well, that's the story put forth by the so-called Saigo-ha Daito Ryu practitioners… but the lack of any evidence that Shiro had any connection to Daito Ryu puts it in rather a lot of doubt. I'd also point out that the age is a bit out (he was 16 when he came to the Kodokan).

What is known and accepted is that Shiro was experienced to a degree in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… a system that Kano was a Menkyo holder in, and which had apparently brought the two in contact a bit earlier. Shiro was one of the early "stars" of the Kodokan, helping Kano to establish the dominance of early Judo, being rather famous for the use of a technique not taught in Judo called Yama Arashi (mountain storm), which he was said to be the only one to be able to perform successfully. Shiro remained with the Kodokan until he was 25, however the reasons for his leaving are still a little unclear.

What is clear, however, is the position of the mainline Daito Ryu. The present head, Katsuyuki Kondo, has stated quite clearly: "Properly speaking, there is no connection whatsoever between Saigo-ha and Daito Ryu Schools. They should not call themselves Daito Ryu because there is no relationship at all between Daito Ryu and the version of history they are offering."

Kano, always concerned that some important knowledge might be lost, engineered an obligation of Sokaku Takeda, Tonomo Saigo's successor, so that Takeda had to teach and reveal the inner secrets (okuden) of the ryu to Mochizuki, an uchideshi of Kyuzo Mifune, so that these secrets could be brought back to the Kodokan.

Er… what? Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba in 1930 after Kano was highly impressed by a demonstration Ueshiba put on, calling it "real judo!" (leading one of his students to ask, jokingly, if they'd been learning "fake judo" all this time…) But, gotta say, the bizarre characterisation of Kano's mentality is just… so wrong it's damn funny. It goes directly against Kano's established ideas, concepts, motivations, and so on…

Absolutely godsdamn no. This, by the way, is the second funniest section of the post so far. I mean… are we forgetting that Tomiki Kenji had already been training with Ueshiba for over a decade at that point? But Mochizuki had to be sent to "bring back these inner secrets"?!?! Ha, damn, that's funny!

This angered Takeda who attempted to disparage the Kodokan at every opportunity. Takeda claimed he knew 3,000 techniques, probably because he always charged for instruction, and did so at a fixed price per technique.

Sure, Sokaku was an absolute capitalist… but that has nothing to do with his take on the Kodokan (and Kano's Judo)… and there's a fair bit of supposition and assumption going on… completely unsupported by anything on record, of course. Especially as Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba, not Takeda (or his son) to "steal" these apparent secrets… ha!

Mochizuki eventually made Judan (10th dan) in this art. Later, Kenji Tomiki was sent to Morihei Ueshiba, who was obligated to accept the student, and eventually awarded him Kudan (9th dan). Ueshiba formed his art (Aikido) from Daito Ryu and Yagyu Ryu.

Er… that's a bit backwards… Tomiki had been training with both Kano and Ueshiba since 1906, Mochizuki since 1930. And, I'm sorry, Ueshiba was "obligated"?!? Why? And while Daito Ryu formed the largest influence on Ueshiba's new system (originally called Ueshiba Ryu Jujutsu, for the record…), Yagyu Ryu did not. Mainly as it was well and truly extinct by then. However Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (properly called just Shinkage Ryu) did have quite an influence… as did Kukishin Ryu, so you know.

Daito Ryu does have a large number of techniques, and includes sword, staff, and body arts. It is an Aiki Jujutsu, focusing on internal methods.

"AN" Aikijujutsu?

And seriously… there's no reason to try to educate me on what Daito Ryu is… especially from such a desperately flawed understanding as shown here.

by Steven R. Cunningham, Ph.D.

6th dan Judo, 7th dan Jujutsu, 6th dan Karate
Chief Instructor, Ju Nan Shin Academy Manchester, CT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bluntly, I don't care if he has a PhD or not, Steven is a fool who has no idea what he's talking about. Let's recap:

Kano did not train in Takeuchi Ryu. Takeuchi Ryu is not "most known for it's weapons work". The named members of various Takenouchi Ryu branches did not provide for the syllabus and kata of the Kodokan. And, most importantly, there is absolutely no connection between Takenouchi Ryu and Daito Ryu… none. None at all. Just… no idea how he came up with that.

Kano's connection to the Takeda family wasn't that "deep", and did not have a martial aspect to it. The claim that Saigo Shiro came into the Kodokan as a Daito Ryu master is not supported by his history, his connections, or his age.

The connection between Ueshiba's group (formerly Ueshiba Ryu Jujutsu, later Aikido) and the Kodokan came later, and is separate from any direct connection to Daito Ryu. In fact, there is really little to no cross-over (other than some people practicing both) between the two systems.

Ready for the next one? Okay!

Reisi Nakamoto

Reisi Nakamoto was not only proficient in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, but also a master of Okinawan Kempo under Shigeru Nakamura. His most outstanding student was Dr. Rod Sacharnoski, who is world famous as a master of Aikijujutsu and the founder of Juko Ryu.

Okay, you've brought Rod "I can't prove I had a teacher in anything at all" Sacharnowski into it… ha!

Dude. You've just lost any credibility that might have been here. I mean… we're dealing with someone who has so little grasp of the culture and language he's dealing with that he accidentally named his school the "Sex House School"… as he couldn't read the kanji he'd chosen! There's only a few things you could do to sabotage your own argument… such as having a source be a self-appointed Western "Soke"… hang on…

I'd also point out that Reisi Nakamoto only turns up in Rod's accounts of his own history… no-one else seems to have ever heard of the guy…

These systems have in many cases been influential in the development of many other martial arts systems and the proliferation of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques. There is one other branch of martial arts, when taught in a combative way, can be seen to derive from Daito Ryu, though not from Sokaku Takeda, this is Kodokan Judo.

Ha! No. There is no connection between Daito Ryu, Takeda Sokaku's teachings, and the Kodokan.

If one looks at the techniques of joint locks and the floating throws of Judo, it is easy to see the Daito Ryu influence in the original, non sport form of Kodokan Judo. It must be remembered that while Kodokan Judo was founded by Jigoro Kano, who was experienced in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu, it was also influenced heavily by many systems, especially those of Sakujiro Yokoyama and Shiro Saigo.

No, it's not "easy to see the Daito Ryu influence", as there isn't any. None. The method of applying locks in Daito Ryu is completely different to that found in Judo… which largely take their methods from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… and are pretty much identical to that. You know… the actual system Kano is documented to have trained in… as opposed to these unsubstantiated claims of Daito and Takenouchi Ryu…

As far as Saigo Shiro and Yokoyama Sakujiro, we've dealt with Saigo, but Yokoyama is a slightly different case. While he did study Daito Ryu under Takeda Sokaku's dojo, it should be recognised that he was, firstly and foremost, a practitioner of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu with Kano, then the Kodokan, only later adding Daito Ryu to his studies. Again, though, that doesn't put any Daito Ryu influence into Judo anymore than my Kyudo influences my Kenjutsu.

Shiro Saigo

Saigo met and became very fond of Jigoro Kano, (whom he considered a great martial artist, teacher, and master), after training in Oshikiuchi under Tanomo Saigo. It was Saigo who established the strong fighting reputation of the Kodokan, taking on many challengers and defeating them with his Oshikiuchi skills. But it must also be remembered that Kano was capable of defeating Saigo in Randori, so the skill of Jigoro Kano himself was exemplary. Sakujiro Yokoyama brought his Yoshin Ryu and Ryoi Shinto Ryu training to the development of the Kodokan as well, which helped to develop the skills and reputation of the school as well.

Yeah… we've covered most of this already… Kano met Shiro when Shiro was a young teen training in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… not anything to do with Daito Ryu. Shiro's "Oshikiuchi" skills were never part of anything claimed with his Judo success (especially when it's believed to mainly be an approach of etiquette, not anything to do with martial arts at all). And, yeah, Kano could be Shiro… he was his senior in the ryu they both came from, after all. Yokoyama was also a Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu practitioner as well… he was not a Yoshin Ryu nor a Ryoi Shinto Ryu practitioner at all. Those were the systems of some of his more impressive early victories… so whoever wrote this got things rather mixed up…

However, most feel it was the force and skill of Shiro Saigo, as well as, his influence on Yokoyama, and of course Yokoyama’s influence on Kyuzo Mifune, the greatest of Judoka who lived through the 1960s, that truly make the Kodokan what it was in the early days.

That's really just speculation and opinion… I'd argue against it, but eh, it's of no import.

Many of the Goshinjutsu, systems of self defense, which developed in the twentieth century, by Japanese and Occidental students of Kodokan Judo, own as much to the genius of Shiro Saigo, which came from Tanomo Saigo and the Daito Ryu lineage, as to Jigoro Kano himself. Today there are many schools of self defense, Judo, and Jujutsu, which have their origin in Kodokan Judo, and while some do not admit their connection, it is the accumulation of many ancient Ryu of Jujutsu, which were combined in the Kodokan, to which these schools should provide thanks.

And here we've gone off the rails again…

No, Saigo's skills and influence is completely devoid of any connection with Daito Ryu. Oh, and the description of the foundation of Judo is rather odd…

Finally, in modern times there are still extant, at least according to some teachers, the Takeda Ryu, Saigo Ha Daito Ryu claiming to be descended from Shiro Saigo, as well as, several branches of the Daito Ryu originating from students of Sokaku Takeda.

And, bluntly, only the Sokaku-line schools have any credibility… but only back to Sokaku himself. Not before.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is truly one of the most influential systems of modern times. Students of Aikido, Judo, and many branches of Jujutsu, as well as, Karate which has an influence from the Motobu family, find a part of their heritage in the grand old system, preserved by Sokaku Takeda and passed on to us through the many students he trained in his lifetime. This then is the heritage of Daito Ryu.

Aikido, yeah. Hakko Ryu, sure. Judo? Nope. Many branches of jujutsu? Karate? Not at all.

Seriously, this is a completely ill-informed pile of tripe. Who wrote this garbage?

"The Multiple Legacy of Daito Ryu" by William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu

HA, a freakin' Western Soke?!?!?!

Nice… you just wanted to abandon all credibility to your argument, didn't you?

And you think Kosen Judo / Kano's Higher Jututsu has no bearing on what Maeda taught in Brazil????? That Maeda and other Kosen Judoka who were sent abroad taught just the newaza that came from Fusen Ryu that was blended into kodokan alone?

Okay, you really out did yourself this time… you want to take this route? Okay…

Kosen Judo is not, I repeat, NOT "Kano's Higher Jujutsu"… it's quite literally "High School" Judo. It's a minor ruleset designed to make practice safer for kids by focusing on ne waza rather than throws… and you think it's "higher jujutsu"?!?! HA! It's quite literally the kiddie version, dude!

Next, Kosen Judo developed AFTER Maeda left Japan. I'm going to repeat that as well… after Maeda left Japan. So… how did he teach something that he never experienced himself, huh?

And here's a real mind-scratcher for ya… Fusen Ryu has NO ne-waza. Seriously. There isn't any in the system at all. None. Thinking that there was any is to make yet another mistake in grasping what you're talking about. The development of ne-waza in judo was highly influenced by Tanabe Mataemon, who was the head of Fusen Ryu at the time… but the ne-waza was his own developed ideas, not from Fusen Ryu itself.

Lol. Seriously.

Agreed… seriously, dude. Wrong guy to try this on.

Oh, and Chisoro? TSD's post was not "informative"… as it was, frankly, so full of holes that finding something accurate in it was damn hard. Even most of the names were wrong…

 

[Xue Sheng]

I too am going to express how much I don't care and post about how silent I am being about the whole topic.

Here is a picture of Joe rogan so that I may better ignore him. And therefore deny him the attention he so obviously craves.





Joe rogan.

You have absolutely no idea how unsurprised I am that you do not understand what is being discussed

 

[TSDTexan]

Honestly, Steve, you lost me there… can't quite follow the syntax of what you're saying. Maybe one what at a time? Or you wouldn't be traditional? Can you rephrase this, cause… I'm lost.

TSD Texan, on the other hand… gotta say, thanks! I haven't laughed like that for a while!

You do know that most of what you posted is complete tripe, and that you're referencing people with no credibility, yeah? Let's take a look…



Okay… this'll be fun…



No, he didn't. At all. In no line.

Er… you do know that only one line of Takenouchi Ryu use the pronunciation "Takeuchi", yeah? Do you know which one…?



No.

Look, for one thing, the order of the names is inconsistent… either use the Japanese form (family name, then personal), or the Western (given name, then family name). Here, it's all messed up… Yano's proper name (Japanese order) it Yano Takano… putting a comma between his first, then family name makes no sense for a Western publication. It's like naming me as "Chris, Parker", as opposed to "Parker, Chris" (which might make some sense). Imai (not Imei) is presented in a Western order (Japanese - Imai Kotaro), and Oshima's name again follows the Western order.

Next, these three gents were from two different Takenouchi lines… Oshima and Imai were from Takenouchi Ryu itself (Sodenke line, I believe), whereas Yano was from the Takenouchi Santo Ryu… which split very early on from the "main" Takenouchi line. And while they all certainly knew of each other, with Kano at the centre, to say that they participated in the construction of the Kodokan syllabus and kata is rather… well… wrong. Especially as there are no Takenouchi kata found in Judo at all (there are kata from other systems), nor does Takenouchi show any influence in any of Judo's syllabus at all. In fact, the most prominent association is that these men were at a number of functions and demonstrations for the Kodokan… but never as any part of the Kodokan itself, instead as demonstrators of their ryu-ha. At the same demonstrations were people representing the Kodokan itself, Sekiguchi Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Sosuishitsu Ryu, Miura Ryu, Shiten Ryu, Fusen Ryu, and more.

But the point is that no, these gentlemen were not involved in the formation and construction of the Kodokan syllabus anymore than any of the others (and less than some).



Oh, please don't tell me you're trying to tell me what Takenouchi (Takeuchi) Ryu is… I mean… it's "particularly well known" as the oldest jujutsu centric ryu-ha in Japan… and far less known for it's buki syllabus… to the point that many don't realise that it has one, let alone as wide a collection as it has (seriously… umbrellas and cooking pot lids… it's all there!).

In other words, no, that's not what Takenouchi Ryu is "particularly well known for".



Oh, you've got to be kidding me here…

Look, there is absolutely no support for any claim of Daito Ryu predating Sokaku Takeda in the late 19th Century. None. There is no mention of it, there is no evidence of it, there is no record of it, and so on. The only thing to give any indication are the oral traditions of Daito Ryu itself… which came from Takeda. So the idea of a ryu-ha founded in 1532 being based in an art unheard of or not existing until they late 1800's is, well, questionable.

Then we have the complete lack of any reference to Daito Ryu in Takenouchi Ryu history and lineage. And we finalise it with the fact that these two ryu-ha, according to their histories, were on opposing sides of Honshu, with Daito Ryu in the East (Kai Province, present day Yamanashi Prefecture, just West of Tokyo), and Takenouchi Ryu in the West (present day Okayama Prefecture, North of Shikoku, West of Osaka, nearly at Hiroshima). And no, travelling between these provinces at that time would not have been easy… we are well before the Edo Jidai and Musha Shugyo… this was the Sengoku Jidai.

In other words, this is possibly the most ridiculous thing said in this post. There is no connection between Daito Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu until the 20th Century.



According to the histories of Daito Ryu, taken such as they are, even they have no mention of being in Okayama Prefecture… so… no. It could also be mentioned that Takenouchi Hisamori was not a prince… he was a warrior, not royalty. It could also be pointed out that that's not the correct pronunciation of Takenouchi's name… it's not "Chumutaki", it's Nakatsukasa Taifu. There is also no mention of the name of the "mountain priest" Hisamori met, other than Hisamori thinking that he looked so fierce, he must be an incarnation of the God Atago himself… the usage of the name "Takagi" is both questionable and rather telling. I have no idea where that bizarre name "HInoshito Torido (Toride?) Kaizan Ryu" comes from… I've never come across it before in any of my dealings with the history of the Ryu at all.



Uh… no, they aren't.



Uh… no, not really. Takeda Tokimune has said that his father (Takeda Sokaku) and Kano Jigoro were on good personal terms… that they would often visit each other when they found each other in their area… however, Kano never mentioned Daito Ryu, Takeda and his approach was almost diametrically opposed to Kano's, and Takeda himself showed little interest in Judo, saying that it "wasn't real budo, more like budo dancing".



Well, first off, his name was Saigo Tanomo, not Tonomo… and by the time he met Takeda Sokaku, he'd taken the name Hoshina Chikanori to signify his new life as a priest. As far as his role in Daito Ryu is concerned, Sokaku is claimed to have learnt the Ryu initially from his father (Takeda Sokichi), and learnt other matters from Hoshina… although it was after Hoshina presented Sokaku with a poem signifying the teachings of Hoshina that Sokaku began referring to what he taught as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu… which would make it a synthesis of both Sokichi's and Hoshina's teachings. But no, Saigo Tanomo was not soke of Daito Ryu before Takeda Sokaku. What he was, rather, was the holder of the Oshikiuchi methods which he taught to Sokaku.

Of course, there are problems. Namely that there are no records or indications of Hoshina being particularly schooled (or schooled at all, really) in martial arts… and, while we basically only have Sokaku's word that he learnt Oshikiuchi from Hoshina, there is no mention of it being martial methods. For the record, the evidence against Hoshina being a martial artist includes his own diary…

One thing that's important to remember is that these stories are largely put forth by the so-called Saigo-ha… quasi-Daito Ryu groups that can't claim a connection to Takeda Sokaku… so they claim an unsubstantiated and questionable connection to Saigo Shiro… who, if we come to the understanding that his adopted father really wasn't anything to do with Daito Ryu, and couldn't have taught Shiro anything of it, had no connection to Daito Ryu either.



Well, that's the story put forth by the so-called Saigo-ha Daito Ryu practitioners… but the lack of any evidence that Shiro had any connection to Daito Ryu puts it in rather a lot of doubt. I'd also point out that the age is a bit out (he was 16 when he came to the Kodokan).

What is known and accepted is that Shiro was experienced to a degree in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… a system that Kano was a Menkyo holder in, and which had apparently brought the two in contact a bit earlier. Shiro was one of the early "stars" of the Kodokan, helping Kano to establish the dominance of early Judo, being rather famous for the use of a technique not taught in Judo called Yama Arashi (mountain storm), which he was said to be the only one to be able to perform successfully. Shiro remained with the Kodokan until he was 25, however the reasons for his leaving are still a little unclear.

What is clear, however, is the position of the mainline Daito Ryu. The present head, Katsuyuki Kondo, has stated quite clearly: "Properly speaking, there is no connection whatsoever between Saigo-ha and Daito Ryu Schools. They should not call themselves Daito Ryu because there is no relationship at all between Daito Ryu and the version of history they are offering."



Er… what? Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba in 1930 after Kano was highly impressed by a demonstration Ueshiba put on, calling it "real judo!" (leading one of his students to ask, jokingly, if they'd been learning "fake judo" all this time…) But, gotta say, the bizarre characterisation of Kano's mentality is just… so wrong it's damn funny. It goes directly against Kano's established ideas, concepts, motivations, and so on…

Absolutely godsdamn no. This, by the way, is the second funniest section of the post so far. I mean… are we forgetting that Tomiki Kenji had already been training with Ueshiba for over a decade at that point? But Mochizuki had to be sent to "bring back these inner secrets"?!?! Ha, damn, that's funny!



Sure, Sokaku was an absolute capitalist… but that has nothing to do with his take on the Kodokan (and Kano's Judo)… and there's a fair bit of supposition and assumption going on… completely unsupported by anything on record, of course. Especially as Mochizuki was sent to Ueshiba, not Takeda (or his son) to "steal" these apparent secrets… ha!



Er… that's a bit backwards… Tomiki had been training with both Kano and Ueshiba since 1906, Mochizuki since 1930. And, I'm sorry, Ueshiba was "obligated"?!? Why? And while Daito Ryu formed the largest influence on Ueshiba's new system (originally called Ueshiba Ryu Jujutsu, for the record…), Yagyu Ryu did not. Mainly as it was well and truly extinct by then. However Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (properly called just Shinkage Ryu) did have quite an influence… as did Kukishin Ryu, so you know.



"AN" Aikijujutsu?

And seriously… there's no reason to try to educate me on what Daito Ryu is… especially from such a desperately flawed understanding as shown here.



Bluntly, I don't care if he has a PhD or not, Steven is a fool who has no idea what he's talking about. Let's recap:

Kano did not train in Takeuchi Ryu. Takeuchi Ryu is not "most known for it's weapons work". The named members of various Takenouchi Ryu branches did not provide for the syllabus and kata of the Kodokan. And, most importantly, there is absolutely no connection between Takenouchi Ryu and Daito Ryu… none. None at all. Just… no idea how he came up with that.

Kano's connection to the Takeda family wasn't that "deep", and did not have a martial aspect to it. The claim that Saigo Shiro came into the Kodokan as a Daito Ryu master is not supported by his history, his connections, or his age.

The connection between Ueshiba's group (formerly Ueshiba Ryu Jujutsu, later Aikido) and the Kodokan came later, and is separate from any direct connection to Daito Ryu. In fact, there is really little to no cross-over (other than some people practicing both) between the two systems.

Ready for the next one? Okay!



Okay, you've brought Rod "I can't prove I had a teacher in anything at all" Sacharnowski into it… ha!

Dude. You've just lost any credibility that might have been here. I mean… we're dealing with someone who has so little grasp of the culture and language he's dealing with that he accidentally named his school the "Sex House School"… as he couldn't read the kanji he'd chosen! There's only a few things you could do to sabotage your own argument… such as having a source be a self-appointed Western "Soke"… hang on…

I'd also point out that Reisi Nakamoto only turns up in Rod's accounts of his own history… no-one else seems to have ever heard of the guy…



Ha! No. There is no connection between Daito Ryu, Takeda Sokaku's teachings, and the Kodokan.



No, it's not "easy to see the Daito Ryu influence", as there isn't any. None. The method of applying locks in Daito Ryu is completely different to that found in Judo… which largely take their methods from Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… and are pretty much identical to that. You know… the actual system Kano is documented to have trained in… as opposed to these unsubstantiated claims of Daito and Takenouchi Ryu…

As far as Saigo Shiro and Yokoyama Sakujiro, we've dealt with Saigo, but Yokoyama is a slightly different case. While he did study Daito Ryu under Takeda Sokaku's dojo, it should be recognised that he was, firstly and foremost, a practitioner of Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu with Kano, then the Kodokan, only later adding Daito Ryu to his studies. Again, though, that doesn't put any Daito Ryu influence into Judo anymore than my Kyudo influences my Kenjutsu.



Yeah… we've covered most of this already… Kano met Shiro when Shiro was a young teen training in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu… not anything to do with Daito Ryu. Shiro's "Oshikiuchi" skills were never part of anything claimed with his Judo success (especially when it's believed to mainly be an approach of etiquette, not anything to do with martial arts at all). And, yeah, Kano could be Shiro… he was his senior in the ryu they both came from, after all. Yokoyama was also a Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu practitioner as well… he was not a Yoshin Ryu nor a Ryoi Shinto Ryu practitioner at all. Those were the systems of some of his more impressive early victories… so whoever wrote this got things rather mixed up…



That's really just speculation and opinion… I'd argue against it, but eh, it's of no import.



And here we've gone off the rails again…

No, Saigo's skills and influence is completely devoid of any connection with Daito Ryu. Oh, and the description of the foundation of Judo is rather odd…



And, bluntly, only the Sokaku-line schools have any credibility… but only back to Sokaku himself. Not before.



Aikido, yeah. Hakko Ryu, sure. Judo? Nope. Many branches of jujutsu? Karate? Not at all.

Seriously, this is a completely ill-informed pile of tripe. Who wrote this garbage?



HA, a freakin' Western Soke?!?!?!

Nice… you just wanted to abandon all credibility to your argument, didn't you?



Okay, you really out did yourself this time… you want to take this route? Okay…

Kosen Judo is not, I repeat, NOT "Kano's Higher Jujutsu"… it's quite literally "High School" Judo. It's a minor ruleset designed to make practice safer for kids by focusing on ne waza rather than throws… and you think it's "higher jujutsu"?!?! HA! It's quite literally the kiddie version, dude!

Next, Kosen Judo developed AFTER Maeda left Japan. I'm going to repeat that as well… after Maeda left Japan. So… how did he teach something that he never experienced himself, huh?

And here's a real mind-scratcher for ya… Fusen Ryu has NO ne-waza. Seriously. There isn't any in the system at all. None. Thinking that there was any is to make yet another mistake in grasping what you're talking about. The development of ne-waza in judo was highly influenced by Tanabe Mataemon, who was the head of Fusen Ryu at the time… but the ne-waza was his own developed ideas, not from Fusen Ryu itself.



Agreed… seriously, dude. Wrong guy to try this on.

Oh, and Chisoro? TSD's post was not "informative"… as it was, frankly, so full of holes that finding something accurate in it was damn hard. Even most of the names were wrong…

OK dude. You win. You got all the answers.

Thank you for correcting all the misspellings, and surname/family names in the material I shared. Thanks, for leaving the impression that these were my errors.

If the material is quoted, then no corrections are to be made, when I post it. I am not an editor. If I post my source, and accurately quote I am not a plagerist, but a reporter.

Please, dont correct the messenger himself. Address the content. By all means.


Firstly,
Never mind the fact, that the artform that was later called Daito Ryu Akai Jujutsu actually predated the name by several hundred years. Minamoto. I dont need to say more. Of the oh...700 flavors of jujutsu running around, this seems to be the one that rose to the top... Like cream.

Secondly, fusen Ryu, as it is taught today no longer has ne-waza in it. Dont argue from silence, that this is how it always was. If instructors abbreviated their system techniques get dropped from transmission and in the future, folks like yourself, will say it never had any.

The headmaster of fusen Ryu was the Fourth Headmaster, and ground fighting was in the system by the time of the second headmaster.

But you already have your mind made up, so nothing I will post can change that.

You have established in your mind 1. Maeda was the only one who brought Jujutsu to Brazil, and 2. That he didn't learn Kozen Judo ( really meaning Higher not High School Kodokan Judo. )
More then rules for competition...it was a curriculum of techniques.

Please, Let your thinking in this matter be upheld, and facts be ignored.

Chris. You got it all figured out. Good luck with that.
/bow