If he was here to defend himself then I would say the same thing nothing would change except I would ask him to define Traditional Martial Arts so that I can know if his definition of a Traditional Martial Art is the same as mine.
Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu
- Thread starter TSDTexan
- Start date
The thing about Joe is that he takes his own personal failings and disappointments with his TDK and assumes that everyone who takes a Traditional Martial Arts has the same failing and short comings as he did. I also understand that if I would also be mad if my instructor pumped up my ego with belts and tournaments making me think that I was better than I really was, only to find out the hard way, that beginner Muay Thai students could defeat my black belt. Who wouldn't be mad, especially after all of the testing fees, and money that was spent only to be mislead. My school tells that story all the time to people who are curious about learning Jow Ga. Even if they don't choose us, we give them tips on how to tell the difference between someone who gives belts out like candy and someone who will actually condition you to be a fighter.
Instead of Joe helping others by telling them about the mistakes that he made and the signs that they should look out for, he just uses a blanket statement about TMA. Not everyone is going to be a good MMA and BJJ is like any other sport, not everyone is going to be good at it. Fighting is the same way, no matter the style, not everyone is going to be good at it. Taking a Martial art, MMA, or BJJ isn't a guarantee that you can't be beat.
Instead of Joe helping others by telling them about the mistakes that he made and the signs that they should look out for, he just uses a blanket statement about TMA. Not everyone is going to be a good MMA and BJJ is like any other sport, not everyone is going to be good at it. Fighting is the same way, no matter the style, not everyone is going to be good at it. Taking a Martial art, MMA, or BJJ isn't a guarantee that you can't be beat.
Drop bear
This is for you. Since you don't like pre-arranged attacks This is exactly what it looks like when trying to figure out how to use Jow Ga Kung Fu. You take the forms, break them apart, and try to actually use what you know. The sparring that you see them will allow them to know what techniques work best in what what situations. This how the hard lessons are learned from mistakes and stupid decisions. This is where any ideas of fancy kung fu fighting go out the door.
And This is what a Jow Ga Sifu should say when you aren't doing Jow Ga
This is what you look like when you don't do Kung Fu. The Sifu should have been saying the same thing that the other guy did. "Technique from form... no boxing"
This is for you. Since you don't like pre-arranged attacks This is exactly what it looks like when trying to figure out how to use Jow Ga Kung Fu. You take the forms, break them apart, and try to actually use what you know. The sparring that you see them will allow them to know what techniques work best in what what situations. This how the hard lessons are learned from mistakes and stupid decisions. This is where any ideas of fancy kung fu fighting go out the door.
And This is what a Jow Ga Sifu should say when you aren't doing Jow Ga
This is what you look like when you don't do Kung Fu. The Sifu should have been saying the same thing that the other guy did. "Technique from form... no boxing"
Agree!
If you spend too much time in your "form training" and not enough time in your "sparring/wrestling training", that's your problem and not your style problem. All MA styles will give you a set of tools to use in combat. It's you who need to figure out how those tools should be used properly.
Old saying said, "Teacher leads you into the door, you have to develop MA skills for yourself".
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Well, and more broadly than that, what is a TMA? What makes a martial art "modern" or "traditional"? Age? Training style? Cultural background? For example - BJJ is older than Hapkido. And yet, BJJ is "modern" and Hapkido is "traditional". Why?
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
BJJ is modern in the sense that it isn't frozen, and there is a lot of flux, and we should set a definition for Traditional... Because that could mean a lot of things.
Does it try to preserve things like forms, or a school of thought, from each generation.
BJJ is always trying to innovate... Sometimes a lack of standardized naming and the dropping of a technique after a few generations leads to " new discovered technique " that already existed... Compare the new mantis guard... And its really the old De La Riva guard.
If BJJ tightly codified all techniques and principles and locked them down as fixed... Than it wouldn't be modern but traditional. It would discourage attempts at innovation, and seek to maintain and preserve a status quo.
While the Founder's Hapkido is fairly new. Circa 1963... It shares among other things a common ancestor art with BJJ. The artform Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu.
and that itself is based on something even older..(but
The bad blood between Korea and Japan have made accurate records opaque to say the least, or clear as mud.)
Marc Tedeschi has a really good book on holding, with various locks and holds and frames up the same technique with the variation on how each discipline employs the same tech.
If it faithfully preserves or tries to preserve the founder's art= traditional....
If it is not frozen but in flux, lack of unified universal standards...= Modern.
BJJ is about 101 years old, depending on which Japanese founder/transmitter we look at bringing it to brazill.
Hapkido is about 60 years old. And has very strong preservation traits... But forks out new standards based organizations.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Well, for what it's worth, I think Joe Rogan's job is to stir the pot and don't hold that against him. I've seen him praise TKD when it's being used effectively in an MMA bout, as he's praised other traditional styles.
Regarding what's traditional or modern, I think it's been well discussed. I stand by my simple test. If you're learning or teaching a technique in a particular way for reasons other than because it's the most efficient or effective, you're in a traditional art. If you've ever said, "this is just how it's done in {insert art name}," it's likely a "traditional" art.
Regarding what's traditional or modern, I think it's been well discussed. I stand by my simple test. If you're learning or teaching a technique in a particular way for reasons other than because it's the most efficient or effective, you're in a traditional art. If you've ever said, "this is just how it's done in {insert art name}," it's likely a "traditional" art.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i dont think joe's job is to actually "stir the pot" but rather he is the type of guy that speaks his mind and doesnt give a $^@* what anyone thinks.
Failings? he was a really good TKD practitioner where is the failing in that? From what i think i remember him saying is that he got his *** handed to him by a boxer and he realized that TKD is really lacking in hand development. if you dont think this is true you are delusional. i am not saying TKD guys cant work their hands but within the style they will never be on the same level as a boxer.
when i hear Joe talk in the clip you posted, what i feel he is saying is that it is funny to him but also very sad that there are so many martial artists out there who are self delusional about their ability to defend themselves and fight in a real situation.
i am a traditionally trained MA and i agree with him on this 100 % i have met and worked with way to many people that to put it lightly are delusional. when he bashes TMA for me its no big deal, i agree with him. i know the comment doesnt pertain to me... now others may find it hits a little to close to home and feel the need to defend what they do and their art.
and if these clips are your reality then ...yeah he is talking about you.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
OK so answer me this?
If you're learning or teaching a technique in a particular way for reasons because it's the most efficient or effective, you're in a "what" art?
And what If you've said, "this is just how it's done in, because its highly effective and efficient" {XYZ-Fu}," it's likely a "what" art.?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I disagree. His job is to be a recognizable face for the UFC (not MMA, but specifically the UFC brand). And he cares very much what the Fertitta brothers and Dana White think. He was reasonably successful before the UFC, but his bread and butter is his work as the color commentator for the brand. A function of his job is to create visibility for the UFC and do his part to keep the brand in the news. Creating a bit of controversy, i.e. stirring the pot, is very much a facet of this.
I agree with the rest of what you posted. I've said it before, the issue is seldom the techniques. It's the way the techniques are trained. The fallacy at work here is this mistaken idea that because someone can do it, I can do it (whatever "it" is). Lyoto Machida trains in Shotokan Karate and he's been successful in the UFC. Therefore, the Shotokan karate in which I train is successful in the UFC. It presumes that the way Machida trains in Shotokan is the norm, when from what I gather, it is not. Ronda Rousey's judo has overpowered wrestling in a scramble. Does this mean that judo > wrestling? I'd say it only suggests that Rousey's judo > Tate's (or whomever else) wrestling.
The good news is that we live in a time where violent crime is, for most of us, a very unlikely thing to occur to us. We are living in an age that indulges our happy delusions of grandeur. We train in styles and tell ourselves that we're capable martial artists, but we are not (most of us.) And the chances of ever having to confront this harsh reality of our training are exceedingly slim. Is kung fu effective in a street fight? No real way to know, and statistically, it's very likely you'll never find out. And unless you find yourself in a situation where you are called upon to use those skills, you will never know.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Non-traditional or practical style.
Traditional, because the "this is just how it's done" is the driver.
Okay, maybe I'm not being clear. There are a lot of factors that go into why a style is trained in a particular way. Efficacy is one factor. Consistency is another. Historical preservation. Culture. You name it. If the most important factor in your training is that you teach as you were taught, you are in what I would consider a traditional style. That's the very definition of the term "tradition."
BJJ isn't traditional because there is room to innovate and no real concern with polluting the style with outside influences. Wing Chun is, I would say, traditional. The very presence of "anti-grappling" and the sincere desire within WC to invent a grappling system within the boundaries of the traditional WC canon of techniques and philosophies is a good example. Only a style concerned with tradition would do this, and it's certainly not the most efficient or effective way to go about it.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
I would like to point out that Joe was a successful comedian and tv personality before his gig at the ufc. Fear factor, Radio city and his successful pod cast.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
He's had quite a career. But he's always been loyal to the UFC. He's worked for them since the late 90's... I don't think he's in the first 10 events, but came on board shortly after that, IIRC.
I hate to nitpick, but I think you mean Radio City. he was also the replacement for Adam Corrolla on the Man Show. LOL.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
See I would have said as the pressure heats up that ability to kung fu decreases. From the pre arranged attacks where there is time and space to do over emphasised responses. To light sparring where less sophisticated attacks and defence get used. To heavy sparring where there is a nod to the kung fu and that is s about it.
Actually that happens with every style including boxing.
And from there we take the idea back to destruction. Because suddenly the fifty shot arm breaking combinations disappear. You don't have the space to pull them off and what you are left with is the basic mechanics of fighting. Hit and don't get hit.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
That should be News Radio.
If you are training like the guys that I pointed out then the ability to do kung fu increases. The only way that the ability to use kung fu decreases is if you don't try to use the techniques in sparring. The kung fu techniques that I know how to use correctly use in sparring, are the same techniques that I would use in a real street fight. Sparring + the punching and kicking drills makes it possible for me to understand when and how a technique should be use in a real fight. The first thing that you learn when using kung fu techniques when sparring is that you don't execute the technique the same way that you do it in the form. If you are trying to do over emphasized responses and attacks then it means you don't understand how to apply the technique. In such a case, it's not a problem with the Kung Fu but an issue with the students understanding.
The most combos that we do is 6. We are trained to throw 3-4 combinations and then reset. The 3-4 combination count is common in many styles of fighting such as boxing, and Muay thai. We don't need 50 strikes to break an arm. We have both long and short range fighting techniques so we can use whatever space is given. Even our long fist techniques can be shorted if needed without reducing a lot of the power. In a real fight my kung fu is the advantage not the disadvantage. If you fall back into basic kicking and hitting then it means that you either don't trust your style of kung fu or you don't know how to apply it in a real fight.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Er… what? Please find me anything that says that there is any connection whatsoever between Daito Ryu and BJJ. Anything.
Er… no.
Speaking as someone who trains in probably the most "traditional" of all systems here… there is never a single occurrence of any of these systems doing anything at all because "that's just how it's done here". There are always, always, always reasons for everything that is done… and those reasons, 99% of the time, are eminently pragmatic and practical… and all based around effectiveness and efficiency. You just have to recognise the context.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
I will oblige you.
(1) Kano studied Takeuchi Ryu.
(1b) Takano, Yano, Kotaro Imei, and Hikasuburo Ohshima were all close colleagues of Kano, and participated in the construction of the Kodokan syllabus and kata.
Takeuchi Ryu is a comprehensive combat art, but is particularly well-known for bokken (wooden sword), jo (staff), and osae (immobilization) techniques.
Takeuchi Ryu was derived from the Daito Ryu line, and was founded in June of 1532.
Chumutaki Hisamori Diasuke Takeuchi was a prince who lived in Okayama, and studied Daito-Ryu. He met an ancient warrior named Takagi (in a dream) who emphasized certain principles that were to underlie Takeuchi-Ryu. The school became known as the "Hinoshito Torido Kaizan Ryu," or "school of the supreme and unsurpassed art of combat."
The techniques of Takeuchi Ryu are divided into five kyo (teachings or principles), related to Takeda's Five Principles-ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, and gokyo.
(2) Daito Ryu.
Kano had deep connections with the Takeda family who would later lead the school.
Shiro Saigo was an adopted son of Tonomo Saigo, soke of this school before Takeda.
Shiro Saigo came to Tokyo at the age of 14 to seek Jujutsu instruction and pursued Kano because of his reputation. Later, he quit both the Kodokan and Daito Ryu when his conflicting obligations to the two masters led him to an impasse.
Kano, always concerned that some important knowledge might be lost, engineered an obligation of Sokaku Takeda, Tonomo Saigo's successor, so that Takeda had to teach and reveal the inner secrets (okuden) of the ryu to Mochizuki, an uchideshi of Kyuzo Mifune, so that these secrets could be brought back to the Kodokan.
This angered Takeda who attempted to disparage the Kodokan at every opportunity. Takeda claimed he knew 3,000 techniques, probably because he always charged for instruction, and did so at a fixed price per technique.
Mochizuki eventually made Judan (10th dan) in this art. Later, Kenji Tomiki was sent to Morihei Ueshiba, who was obligated to accept the student, and eventually awarded him Kudan (9th dan). Ueshiba formed his art (Aikido) from Daito Ryu and Yagyu Ryu.
Daito Ryu does have a large number of techniques, and includes sword, staff, and body arts. It is an Aiki Jujutsu, focusing on internal methods.
by Steven R. Cunningham, Ph.D.
6th dan Judo, 7th dan Jujutsu, 6th dan Karate
Chief Instructor, Ju Nan Shin Academy Manchester, CT
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Reisi Nakamoto
Reisi Nakamoto was not only proficient in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, but also a master of Okinawan Kempo under Shigeru Nakamura. His most outstanding student was Dr. Rod Sacharnoski, who is world famous as a master of Aikijujutsu and the founder of Juko Ryu.
These systems have in many cases been influential in the development of many other martial arts systems and the proliferation of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu techniques. There is one other branch of martial arts, when taught in a combative way, can be seen to derive from Daito Ryu, though not from Sokaku Takeda, this is Kodokan Judo.
If one looks at the techniques of joint locks and the floating throws of Judo, it is easy to see the Daito Ryu influence in the original, non sport form of Kodokan Judo. It must be remembered that while Kodokan Judo was founded by Jigoro Kano, who was experienced in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu, it was also influenced heavily by many systems, especially those of Sakujiro Yokoyama and Shiro Saigo.
Shiro Saigo
Saigo met and became very fond of Jigoro Kano, (whom he considered a great martial artist, teacher, and master), after training in Oshikiuchi under Tanomo Saigo. It was Saigo who established the strong fighting reputation of the Kodokan, taking on many challengers and defeating them with his Oshikiuchi skills. But it must also be remembered that Kano was capable of defeating Saigo in Randori, so the skill of Jigoro Kano himself was exemplary. Sakujiro Yokoyama brought his Yoshin Ryu and Ryoi Shinto Ryu training to the development of the Kodokan as well, which helped to develop the skills and reputation of the school as well.
However, most feel it was the force and skill of Shiro Saigo, as well as, his influence on Yokoyama, and of course Yokoyama’s influence on Kyuzo Mifune, the greatest of Judoka who lived through the 1960s, that truly make the Kodokan what it was in the early days.
Many of the Goshinjutsu, systems of self defense, which developed in the twentieth century, by Japanese and Occidental students of Kodokan Judo, own as much to the genius of Shiro Saigo, which came from Tanomo Saigo and the Daito Ryu lineage, as to Jigoro Kano himself. Today there are many schools of self defense, Judo, and Jujutsu, which have their origin in Kodokan Judo, and while some do not admit their connection, it is the accumulation of many ancient Ryu of Jujutsu, which were combined in the Kodokan, to which these schools should provide thanks.
Finally, in modern times there are still extant, at least according to some teachers, the Takeda Ryu, Saigo Ha Daito Ryu claiming to be descended from Shiro Saigo, as well as, several branches of the Daito Ryu originating from students of Sokaku Takeda.
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is truly one of the most influential systems of modern times. Students of Aikido, Judo, and many branches of Jujutsu, as well as, Karate which has an influence from the Motobu family, find a part of their heritage in the grand old system, preserved by Sokaku Takeda and passed on to us through the many students he trained in his lifetime. This then is the heritage of Daito Ryu.
"The Multiple Legacy of Daito Ryu" by William Durbin, Soke of Kiyojute Ryu
And you think Kosen Judo / Kano's Higher Jututsu has no bearing on what Maeda taught in Brazil????? That Maeda and other Kosen Judoka who were sent abroad taught just the newaza that came from Fusen Ryu that was blended into kodokan alone?
Lol. Seriously.
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