JKD vs. MMA

[Tez3]

If I'm getting ElfTengu's post, I think he's suggesting that there are some but not many. Taking it a step further, it looks like James Saville trains at least some BJJ, too. Won a couple of fights by submission.

As I said, if I'm understanding ElfTengu (and I might not be), he's suggesting that most traditional training doesn't include the things he listed that he considers the keys to being effective. But martial artists in TMA styles who do these things CAN make it work. If I'm getting it right, I can agree. I might not agree entirely with his specific criteria, but I've said many times that it's not the techniques, but the training methods that I think are the problem. And just recently in another thread, I said that I believe that most styles have internalized training philosophies. Some bad and some good.

James does more than train 'some' BJJ, he trains MMA with Caged Steel, a very good MMA gym. Ross Pearson is out of there, and they have two UFC vets Ian Freeman and Leigh Remedious.
James' Jits is awsome actually. He's also part monkey! I've known him since he was 14,watched his training and his first fights and he's one of the most talented young fighters going. He actually built a cage in his garden when he was 15 which was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. James is a good example of the fighters we see here, well rounded, well trained and supported with good skills on the ground and standing. He's fit, yes and he's entertaining all things that you'd want in an MMA fighter. He started in TKD and has added groundwork, boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling to his skill set as do all the fighters I know. He's been training for years now. Like most of us he's down to earth, theres little money in MMA in the UK, only a couple of fighters earn enough to live on and they went to America for that, we don't get hyped up about the info these fighters give us, we know them, know where they train and who they are trained by and in many cases have trained with them. Many of us train at other gyms and we have frequent 'open mats' usually for charity where we all train together, it is actually very 'homely' and small time. Proper MMA one could call it, the grass roots, people doing it because they love it sort of MMA.

 

[Steve]

James does more than train 'some' BJJ, he trains MMA with Caged Steel, a very good MMA gym. Ross Pearson is out of there, and they have two UFC vets Ian Freeman and Leigh Remedious.
James' Jits is awsome actually. He's also part monkey! I've known him since he was 14,watched his training and his first fights and he's one of the most talented young fighters going. He actually built a cage in his garden when he was 15 which was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. James is a good example of the fighters we see here, well rounded, well trained and supported with good skills on the ground and standing. He's fit, yes and he's entertaining all things that you'd want in an MMA fighter. He started in TKD and has added groundwork, boxing, Muay Thai and wrestling to his skill set as do all the fighters I know. He's been training for years now. Like most of us he's down to earth, theres little money in MMA in the UK, only a couple of fighters earn enough to live on and they went to America for that, we don't get hyped up about the info these fighters give us, we know them, know where they train and who they are trained by and in many cases have trained with them. Many of us train at other gyms and we have frequent 'open mats' usually for charity where we all train together, it is actually very 'homely' and small time. Proper MMA one could call it, the grass roots, people doing it because they love it sort of MMA.

Right. He's not just a TKD guy, in spite of what your first post implied. That's my entire point. Your first post about him made hiim sound like some guy who stepped right out of the dojang and into the cage. Of course, that's not going to happen.

 

[Tez3]

Right. He's not just a TKD guy, in spite of what your first post implied. That's my entire point. Your first post about him made hiim sound like some guy who stepped right out of the dojang and into the cage. Of course, that's not going to happen.

Er no, I don't think so. I said he was an MMA fighter with a TKD BB. It didn't imply anything about him stepping out of anywhere and fighting. If he's MMA of course he's not just stepped out of a Dojang and of course he's got ground skills, wouldn't be an MMA fighter else.

Quote
I have just the MMA fighter for this challenge, he's called James Saville, has a TKD black belt and is one of the best MMA fighters I know, he's quite young still not 20 yet but is also amazing at parkour. Have a look on You Tube for him. Unquote

 

[Steve]

Er no, I don't think so. I said he was an MMA fighter with a TKD BB. It didn't imply anything about him stepping out of anywhere and fighting. If he's MMA of course he's not just stepped out of a Dojang and of course he's got ground skills, wouldn't be an MMA fighter else.

Quote
I have just the MMA fighter for this challenge, he's called James Saville, has a TKD black belt and is one of the best MMA fighters I know, he's quite young still not 20 yet but is also amazing at parkour. Have a look on You Tube for him. Unquote

You said it in response to ElfTengu's post, in which he said that any one who trains in a TMA would be successful if they did x, y, and z. Whether you or I agree with his specific critieria or not, you said... exactly what you said above. I was pointing out that, in spite of what your post implies (whether intentional or not), your guy doesn't just train in TKD. You agreed with me, although you seemed to think otherwise, when you said that he's awesome on the ground, and also trains in greco roman wrestling, boxing and muay thai. Sounds like a busy guy.

 

[Tez3]

You said it in response to ElfTengu's post, in which he said that any one who trains in a TMA would be successful if they did x, y, and z. Whether you or I agree with his specific critieria or not, you said... exactly what you said above. I was pointing out that, in spite of what your post implies (whether intentional or not), your guy doesn't just train in TKD. You agreed with me, although you seemed to think otherwise, when you said that he's awesome on the ground, and also trains in greco roman wrestling, boxing and muay thai. Sounds like a busy guy.

Greco Roman wrestling? No, I didn't say that, I said wrestling as in wrestling.
I put Scraps up there for the MMA part of the challenge not the TMA part, that's why I said put he's an MMA fighter. A pro fighter from one of the best gyms in the country, I put him in there because he does free running not because he was just an MMA fighter, I was waiting for the TMA people to come up with a challenger or at least someone who can meet the same standards. I was agreeing with ElfTengu and putting forward the person that met his criteria.

 

[ElfTengu]

I gues that what I was getting at is that it is not the art(s) studied that makes the better fighter/combatant, and it is definitely not the grade or belt achieved, but all the additional aspects that need to be in place to overcome this new phenomenon of MMA, where there are no principles, no founder, no grandmaster, no tradition, no etiquette, just hard work and sports science.

There is no point getting into a 'what would Bruce do' debate, any more than there is with any other deceased martial arts masters, but Guro Inosanto seems to take MMA seriously, and so does my teacher's teacher Bob Breen.

If anything, MMA makes the 'absorb what is useful and discard the rest' guiding principle of JKD even easier, because the top exponents and trainers/coaches of MMA have already sorted the wheat from the chaff of many systems that we might not otherwise look to, especially in terms of modern approaches to diet, weight training, high percentage techniques etc. It is probably preferable to looking at raw Thai boxing and judo as Bruce did, because things have moved on. Can anyone tell me if Bruce looked at BBJ, because it was certainly around then, but also there were other arts in their early stages such as Krav Maga etc at the time, and obscure Japanese arts like Koryu Jujutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu. Despite not knowing what Bruce would do today, it is likely that BJJ would have largely supplanted Judo as a source for grappling and groundfighting, but of course this is mere conjecture and supposition, and judo still has a lot to offer, which is why my current teacher cross trains in judo.

Another thing worth discussing in the sports versus real debate, is the fact that we all know that the Wing Chun aspects of JKD really work in a close quarters situation, but you just don't see them in MMA competition and in the early days of UFC, they just didn't get their practitioners past the preliminaries, and the JKD fighters seemed to drop those apsects in the ocatagon. Is it the sweat? Is it that the Muay Thai approach to controlling the distance and the fact that they go to a clinch/grapple as soon as possible rather than fight like boxers or wing chun practitioners up close.

And lastly, back to my earlier points that have been discussed since, it is a lot about the individual and their background, the nastier and tougher the upbringing, the greater inherent ability to overhwhelm an opponent with sheer aggression and psychological aspects. Like some of the British MMA comentators say to the extent that it has become something of a cliché, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

 

[Tez3]

And lastly, back to my earlier points that have been discussed since, it is a lot about the individual and their background, the nastier and tougher the upbringing, the greater inherent ability to overhwhelm an opponent with sheer aggression and psychological aspects. Like some of the British MMA comentators say to the extent that it has become something of a cliché, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

Ian Butlin or Leigh Remedious?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ian Butlin or Leigh Remedious?

Actually Mark Twain said it first

 

[Tez3]

Actually Mark Twain said it first

Of course but like all wise sayings it bears repeating! Both Ian and Leigh (the latter almost indecently so lol) are very well educated so would know the origins of the saying.

 

[Steve]

Greco Roman wrestling? No, I didn't say that, I said wrestling as in wrestling.
I put Scraps up there for the MMA part of the challenge not the TMA part, that's why I said put he's an MMA fighter. A pro fighter from one of the best gyms in the country, I put him in there because he does free running not because he was just an MMA fighter, I was waiting for the TMA people to come up with a challenger or at least someone who can meet the same standards. I was agreeing with ElfTengu and putting forward the person that met his criteria.

Come on, Tez. You're doing it again. Who gives a crap whether it was greco roman or just regular wrestling? By fixating on that, you're missing the point, which is that you're agreeing with me, and I'm agreeing with ElfTengu. The only reason I posted in response to you at all is that you implied (again, whether you meant to or not) that your guy was a strict TKD black belt by omitting any of his other training and mentioning only his TKD training. I pointed out that he clearly isn't training just TKD anymore, if he trains TKD anymore at all. And you got your hackles up, even though you agree with me. And then we go through 6 or 8 posts where I tell you repeatedly that you're parroting my point but doing so as though you're correcting me.

If you were, as you say now, putting him out there as an MMA fighter and waiting for an equally competent TMA guy to be nominated, why did you mention his TKD BB at all? It only confused the issue.

I gues that what I was getting at is that it is not the art(s) studied that makes the better fighter/combatant, and it is definitely not the grade or belt achieved, but all the additional aspects that need to be in place to overcome this new phenomenon of MMA, where there are no principles, no founder, no grandmaster, no tradition, no etiquette, just hard work and sports science.

There is no point getting into a 'what would Bruce do' debate, any more than there is with any other deceased martial arts masters, but Guro Inosanto seems to take MMA seriously, and so does my teacher's teacher Bob Breen.

If anything, MMA makes the 'absorb what is useful and discard the rest' guiding principle of JKD even easier, because the top exponents and trainers/coaches of MMA have already sorted the wheat from the chaff of many systems that we might not otherwise look to, especially in terms of modern approaches to diet, weight training, high percentage techniques etc. It is probably preferable to looking at raw Thai boxing and judo as Bruce did, because things have moved on. Can anyone tell me if Bruce looked at BBJ, because it was certainly around then, but also there were other arts in their early stages such as Krav Maga etc at the time, and obscure Japanese arts like Koryu Jujutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu. Despite not knowing what Bruce would do today, it is likely that BJJ would have largely supplanted Judo as a source for grappling and groundfighting, but of course this is mere conjecture and supposition, and judo still has a lot to offer, which is why my current teacher cross trains in judo.

Another thing worth discussing in the sports versus real debate, is the fact that we all know that the Wing Chun aspects of JKD really work in a close quarters situation, but you just don't see them in MMA competition and in the early days of UFC, they just didn't get their practitioners past the preliminaries, and the JKD fighters seemed to drop those apsects in the ocatagon. Is it the sweat? Is it that the Muay Thai approach to controlling the distance and the fact that they go to a clinch/grapple as soon as possible rather than fight like boxers or wing chun practitioners up close.

And lastly, back to my earlier points that have been discussed since, it is a lot about the individual and their background, the nastier and tougher the upbringing, the greater inherent ability to overhwhelm an opponent with sheer aggression and psychological aspects. Like some of the British MMA comentators say to the extent that it has become something of a cliché, "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

I'll try to keep it straightforward so no one misunderstands. I agree.

 

[Tez3]

Come on, Tez. You're doing it again. Who gives a crap whether it was greco roman or just regular wrestling? By fixating on that, you're missing the point, which is that you're agreeing with me, and I'm agreeing with ElfTengu. The only reason I posted in response to you at all is that you implied (again, whether you meant to or not) that your guy was a strict TKD black belt by omitting any of his other training and mentioning only his TKD training. I pointed out that he clearly isn't training just TKD anymore, if he trains TKD anymore at all. And you got your hackles up, even though you agree with me. And then we go through 6 or 8 posts where I tell you repeatedly that you're parroting my point but doing so as though you're correcting me.

If you were, as you say now, putting him out there as an MMA fighter and waiting for an equally competent TMA guy to be nominated, why did you mention his TKD BB at all? It only confused the issue.

I'll try to keep it straightforward so no one misunderstands. I agree.

Wow, you are way off with my posts! I did say what his training was...it's MMA! He's an MMA fighter so of course his training is MMA with all the usual constituents, do I have to write them out every time?
I really think you are reading stuff into posts that isn't there at all and you are worrying me taking what is basically a jokey post so very seriously.

I read the bit about parkour and thought I know just the lad to do the MMA bit that so I smiled to myself and thought I'd give Scraps a bit of a write up. There was very little thought put into it, I added the TKD bit because I'm always telling people that our fighters come from a TMA background and that is just a bit of proof, lord, there was nothing else in there.

I'm fixating on nothing, just very confused as to why you are basically picking apart my posts and reading into them loads of things that aren't there. I haven't had my hackles up at all, just been sat scratching my head, I said he was an MMA fighter what more do you want? I'm correcting you because you seem intent on thinking I'm saying and feeling something I'm not, I have no idea whether I agree with you or not because you have got me totally foxed by whatever game you're playng.

 

[Steve]

Wow, you are way off with my posts! I did say what his training was...it's MMA! He's an MMA fighter so of course his training is MMA with all the usual constituents, do I have to write them out every time?
I really think you are reading stuff into posts that isn't there at all and you are worrying me taking what is basically a jokey post so very seriously.

I read the bit about parkour and thought I know just the lad to do the MMA bit that so I smiled to myself and thought I'd give Scraps a bit of a write up. There was very little thought put into it, I added the TKD bit because I'm always telling people that our fighters come from a TMA background and that is just a bit of proof, lord, there was nothing else in there.

I'm fixating on nothing, just very confused as to why you are basically picking apart my posts and reading into them loads of things that aren't there. I haven't had my hackles up at all, just been sat scratching my head, I said he was an MMA fighter what more do you want? I'm correcting you because you seem intent on thinking I'm saying and feeling something I'm not, I have no idea whether I agree with you or not because you have got me totally foxed by whatever game you're playng.

Okay. You're right. You caught me. I'm just playing a game.

 

[Tez3]

Okay. You're right. You caught me. I'm just playing a game.

Don't be like that, I really don't know what you thought I was thinking when I posted and I really am baffled by your posts, genuinely. I know what I meant when I wrote them but you have read something totally different into them and taken the conversation into places where I really don't know what we are talking about.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Of course but like all wise sayings it bears repeating! Both Ian and Leigh (the latter almost indecently so lol) are very well educated so would know the origins of the saying.

It use to be part of my sig

 

[Steve]

Don't be like that, I really don't know what you thought I was thinking when I posted and I really am baffled by your posts, genuinely. I know what I meant when I wrote them but you have read something totally different into them and taken the conversation into places where I really don't know what we are talking about.

It's going both ways. Honestly guys, I communicate in writing all day long and have no problems making myself clear everywhere but here. It's frustrating. I'll happily admit that it's me, because I seem to be having these issues constantly here, but I'll be damned if I know why. I go back and re-read my posts and, to me, they're very clear. I just don't get it. But time and again, I'll post something and someone will counter points I'm making with the same points.

Here's my plan. Short posts and as many bullets as I can.

 

[Tez3]

It's going both ways. Honestly guys, I communicate in writing all day long and have no problems making myself clear everywhere but here. It's frustrating. I'll happily admit that it's me, because I seem to be having these issues constantly here, but I'll be damned if I know why. I go back and re-read my posts and, to me, they're very clear. I just don't get it. But time and again, I'll post something and someone will counter points I'm making with the same points.

Here's my plan. Short posts and as many bullets as I can.

The thing was though when talking about the MMA fighter I wasn't making any point just that I know a lad who does MMA and parkour, there wasn't a point to the post really, it was just a bit of a jokey comment on ElfTengu's point. I only metioned the TKD because as I said, I do go on about how we come from a TMA background, I just wanted to show that nothing else. Plus you are attributing emotions to me that I wasn't experiencing, I wasn't getting my hackles up, I reserve that for my stalker lol!

On MMA training....in James' gym as in our club and all the fighter's gyms we train MMA, that's what we call it, we don't train arts separately, we don't have a class for MT, another for boxing and another for BJJ, we will train it as a whole, MMA training. There may be a class for beginners and another for the gym's team but everything is trained together so it all flows so when I say James trains MMA that's exactly what I mean.
Last Thursday we started with a warm up and fitness, then went on to defences from the ground, then pad work, kicking and punching then some grappling. It varies on the night depending on who's in and whether anyone has a fight coming up but that's how we train so I didn't omit any of James' training at all. I thought you understood how we train.
In James' gym they have more than one instructor, they have a ground coach and a standup coach so in the same session some could be with one or the other. Plus people can go into the gym to train on their own. Some places which have their own buildings will have a standup class or a ground class but it's for MMA it's not Muay Thai or BJJ as such but still just MMA. The standup will be a mixture of boxing, karate and MT with kicks, elbows and knees which are common to all martial arts except modern boxing. The groundwork is again a mixture of Judo, wrestling and BJJ all specifically for MMA not a single style. We also use karate and Aikido takedowns. It's all non Gi too. The classes will be advertised as MMA standup and MMA groundwork.
Some gyms are also able to rent out space to other styles which have nothing to do with MMA, it just brings in revenue and helps pay the bills. If they are lucky it could be a boxing club or a BJJ class which means extra training for the MMAers if they wish.
I hope that explains why I said James' trains MMA and why I didn't mean TKD was his only style.

 

[ElfTengu]

Actually Mark Twain said it first

What?

Mark Twain commentated at Mixed Martial Arts events? :xtrmshock



(hee hee snicker)

 

[Xue Sheng]

What?

Mark Twain commentated at Mixed Martial Arts events? :xtrmshock



(hee hee snicker)

Yes, yes he did

I know this is hard to take for many in MMA but there actually was life before MMA..... Unlike Xingyiquan... there was nothing before Xingyiquan

 

[ElfTengu]

Unlike Xingyiquan... there was nothing before Xingyiquan

That's easy for you to say.

You can probably pronounce it for one thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's easy for you to say.

You can probably pronounce it for one thing.

Yes, yes I can :EG: