JKD vs. MMA

[Steve]

It's okay, guys. It's pretty well established that the Brits are funnier in theory than in practice.

Except for Monty Python. That's funny stuff.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing I have said was intended as as insult but now I know what insults you...............

it's Great Britain btw


No I wouldn't insult you, I don't intend to insult anyone in fact. It just that on the internet people find meanings where there are none and find insult where there is none intended. sometimes someones online personality grates on another which is what I think mine does to James K which is why he is intend on taking insult.
anyway I've just come in from my second class of JKD and have had a great time so I'm unupsettable at the moment lol!

Nothing you said upset me in the least (as I said in my previous post to ElfTengu); I was however a bit bothered by what ElfTengu said due to the stereotyping and generalizations which tends to bother me a bit no matter who you or what one is talking about

And to be honest, no, no you don't really know what insults me.

At least I spelled the name of your country correctly.

Of course I don't believe in stereotyping, even though you are uncannily accurate if you imagine me to be a cross between a Monty Python character and James Bond, and I am chased around by large groups of scantily clad women like Benny Hill on a daily basis.

I was just poking fun, forgive me. It is something we do a lot in Britain.

Things in type and posted to the web can be easily misunderstood, and that very same thing said face to face would not be an issue at all.


As to my misspelling of Britain, all I can say is "damn spell check" and never post anything when you are pressed for time and can’t proof read it

My sincerest apologies to all from the UK :asian:.

 

[ElfTengu]

I guess that forums like this are a lot of different things to different people.

Whilst some people, usually younger members (and not necessarily American) will say things that they would never dare to say face to face to people on forums, some of us have the kind of integrity that means that we are the same person online as we would be face to face and in person, and I apologise if I treated this thread like a ribald locker room for a few posts, but please take it as a compliment if I insult you, it means I like and accept you and hope that you will return the compliment by insulting me in kind. A year ago I moved from an office based white collar Learning & Development role, into a blue collar factory plant role (of far less prestige but more money and time off), and basically it is the kind of place where you aren't accepted until you are able to give and receive a coinsiderable degree of well intended light hearted abuse and are able to fart and /cussswear with the best of them. The people I work with now would have taken the various instance of offence being taken on this forum as some kind of weakness and would have turned up the heat rather than apologise because such confilict is a source of considerable amusement in a job as repetitive and mundane as ours can be. It has been an interesting year and I am now fully assimilated with the blue collar borg, but I realise that not everyone will be coming from a similar perspective.

And because I am generally more active in the ninjutsu sections I guess I assumed that the same sensibilities would apply in the JKD section.

I will behave myself in future I promise.

Now can we get back to the discussion? Where were we?

 

[Xue Sheng]

No worries

Likely I took it more personally than I should of.

 

[Tez3]

Elftengu is right you know, we do tend to be very polite with people we don't like and insult our mates. Not only insults but some of the most appalling practical jokes you can imagine, and nicknames, ah the nicknames!

 

[Steve]

Elftengu is right you know, we do tend to be very polite with people we don't like and insult our mates. Not only insults but some of the most appalling practical jokes you can imagine, and nicknames, ah the nicknames!

I don't think it's any different in America. But if you try to get too chummy with someone who doesn't know you're joking, things go south fast.

For what it's worth, I'm ready and willing to get into a detailed discussion of everything wrong with Britain. That sounds fun and there's certainly plenty to talk about!

 

[James Kovacich]

.

1) JKD could now be said to be virtually 100% American

2) No one is seriously bashing anyone else, so just lighten up guys eh?

1) JKD's seeds were planted in Seattle, nurtured in Oakland and fertilized in Los Angeles by a born American in America. So yes JKD is 100% American martial art, offspring of Chinese Gung Fu to what "it is now."

2) Agreed, but you are wrong about summarizing Americans.

 

[ElfTengu]

2) Agreed, but you are wrong about summarizing Americans.

I'm never wrong, I'm British!

I do worry that not everyone shares our sense of humour though, look at the attached clip of Britain's most popular TV driving show, in fact, probably Britain's best show regardless of subject matter, and see what happened down South. You may have to look at more than one Part, especially from halfway through Part 5, but it's worth it.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think it's any different in America. But if you try to get too chummy with someone who doesn't know you're joking, things go south fast.

For what it's worth, I'm ready and willing to get into a detailed discussion of everything wrong with Britain. That sounds fun and there's certainly plenty to talk about!

Ah but you'd have to get into the North/south divide, the Scots v the English, the Welsh v the English, the Cornish v the English, the Irish v the English, the Shetlanders v the Scots, all of us against the Scousers and Geordies, Scousers agiainst the world etc etc before you even got to what was wrong about Britain though you'd have to decide whether you were discussing Britain, the UK or just a particular country as what pertains to one country won't pertain to all! The UK and Great Britain contain different parts such as the Isla of Man and the Channel Islands where France comes into play there.
Confused? You will be!

I think I left out the Brums too and the tykes.

 

[pmosiun1]

Let's discuss both the similarities and differences between Jeet Kune Do and Mixed Martial Arts.

There is no similarity.

In 2004, UFC President Dana White was quoted as saying that Bruce Lee is the "father of mixed martial arts."

Dana White is a businessman. He will say anything to sell his product.

From this we can make the assumption that Modern MMA was heavily influenced by one of the principle concepts of JKD, which is to "take what is effective and throw away what is ineffective".

The thing is you can tell which is effective and which is not by sparring. If the technique is effective, it will work in a pressure testing environment against a resisting opponent.

However, while the first few UFC tournaments were "no-holds barred", more recent rules have limited contestants in order to prevent death or serious injury from occuring; MMA has taken the shape of a bona fide sport, which in many ways contradicts JKD's philosophies against limitations.

We all have two arms, two legs. We all have the same body posture to relay force.

Unless there is a human being with four legs and three arms. We all will, in many ways, fight the same way.

Also, a lot of people tend to think of the two as being the same thing, and use them pretty much interchangeably.

Thoughts? Comments? Opinions?

It is not, a lot of people say they know that MMA and JKD is the same but they all say that because they misunderstood a book called the Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

However, if you look at other of the Bruce Lee books, Tao of Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do: Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way. It indicates that the two is not the same.

 

[Xael]

Xael, you've seen every single MMA fighter in the world then to be able to announce that MMA fighters stand up is poor? Most of these men and women in MMA are actually masters in their own right, most I know have Dan grades in a TMA, you can't judge the thousands of MMA fighters there are by a few you have seen. Btw that includes Americans like Chuck Lidell as well as Europeans and Asians. The myth that people wander into an MMA gym and after 6 months come out as fighters is just that, a myth. Most fighters I know and know of have spent years training.

Again though the idea that MMA people can't translate their skills into SD is being touted, this is incorrect, we can fight no rules just the same as anyone. We can do eye gouges as good as the next person, if that's what is called for. We don't have to stop doing a techniques just because usually in the cage the ref will stop it if it becomes too much, we can carry it through when needed, we can adapt techniques for the 'street' as well as anyone else can.

Please do your research before rubbishing MMA, actually look at what people train before repeating the insulting statement that MMA fighters are jacks of all trades. It's not true and it is insulting.

I do not need to see every single MMA fighter in the world. I have seen hundreds and that's a pretty good number. Do I need to see every drunk driver to make the judgment call that driving drunk is stupid? Use common sense here.
Most of these MMA fighters are not masters. That is a joke. I love what King Mo said regarding MMA fighters. He is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Most of MMA is purely marketing, for example take the way people build up fighters. They say, "Anderson Silva is a world class boxer/kickboxer.." and here is the problem that King Mo points out. When did Anderson ever compete in world class boxing/kickboxing? He did not. So stop saying he is something that he isnt. Furthermore it is not saying that he does not have the skills, I for one think he would do well in kickboxing, but calling him world class when he has never even competed like that is a falsehood. Most people that follow and watch MMA are caught up on the hype train that feeds you info regarding these fighters.
There are quite a few masters of Judo and BJJ out there, even wrestling. I have nothing but respect for them, but I am talking about standup.
TMA = ? SD =? Sorry do not know what that is.
You accuse me of not doing research, re-read what I wrote in page 4 of this thread before making these claims. I can tell my comments about striking and proper punching techniques went over your head. You really have no idea what you are talking about here. I am sorry you are insulted but because you get a blackbelt in an art that mass produces black belts like they are going out of style does not mean squat. Having a blackbelt in a korean art like TKD/TSD or regular karate hardly makes you a striker.

 

[Tez3]

I do not need to see every single MMA fighter in the world. I have seen hundreds and that's a pretty good number. Do I need to see every drunk driver to make the judgment call that driving drunk is stupid? Use common sense here.
Most of these MMA fighters are not masters. That is a joke. I love what King Mo said regarding MMA fighters. He is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Most of MMA is purely marketing, for example take the way people build up fighters. They say, "Anderson Silva is a world class boxer/kickboxer.." and here is the problem that King Mo points out. When did Anderson ever compete in world class boxing/kickboxing? He did not. So stop saying he is something that he isnt. Furthermore it is not saying that he does not have the skills, I for one think he would do well in kickboxing, but calling him world class when he has never even competed like that is a falsehood. Most people that follow and watch MMA are caught up on the hype train that feeds you info regarding these fighters.
There are quite a few masters of Judo and BJJ out there, even wrestling. I have nothing but respect for them, but I am talking about standup.
TMA = ? SD =? Sorry do not know what that is.
You accuse me of not doing research, re-read what I wrote in page 4 of this thread before making these claims. I can tell my comments about striking and proper punching techniques went over your head. You really have no idea what you are talking about here. I am sorry you are insulted but because you get a blackbelt in an art that mass produces black belts like they are going out of style does not mean squat. Having a blackbelt in a korean art like TKD/TSD or regular karate hardly makes you a striker.

Of course you're right, why wouldn't you be. And now you've managed to insult everyone here with a belt in a Korean and Japanese style. There's little point in debating anything with people like you, you know it all obviously. Thank you so much for your imput. It says far more about you than it does me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Elftengu is right you know, we do tend to be very polite with people we don't like and insult our mates. Not only insults but some of the most appalling practical jokes you can imagine, and nicknames, ah the nicknames!

Not much different here based on my experience... except for the practical joke bits, those I don't do.

 

[Tez3]

Not much different here based on my experience... except for the practical joke bits, those I don't do.

I don't mind some practical jokes if they are harmless and don't humiliate anyone but theres a tendency in factories and places like that for them to be very cruel.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Having a blackbelt in a korean art like TKD/TSD or regular karate hardly makes you a striker.

Nor does it mean you are not.

And just a bit of advice, the font size you tend to use is rather large and unless you are trying to come off as yelling at someone you might want to use the standard font size of MT - Verdana 2

 

[Steve]

I do not need to see every single MMA fighter in the world. I have seen hundreds and that's a pretty good number. Do I need to see every drunk driver to make the judgment call that driving drunk is stupid? Use common sense here.
Most of these MMA fighters are not masters. That is a joke. I love what King Mo said regarding MMA fighters. He is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Most of MMA is purely marketing, for example take the way people build up fighters. They say, "Anderson Silva is a world class boxer/kickboxer.." and here is the problem that King Mo points out. When did Anderson ever compete in world class boxing/kickboxing? He did not. So stop saying he is something that he isnt. Furthermore it is not saying that he does not have the skills, I for one think he would do well in kickboxing, but calling him world class when he has never even competed like that is a falsehood. Most people that follow and watch MMA are caught up on the hype train that feeds you info regarding these fighters.
There are quite a few masters of Judo and BJJ out there, even wrestling. I have nothing but respect for them, but I am talking about standup.
TMA = ? SD =? Sorry do not know what that is.
You accuse me of not doing research, re-read what I wrote in page 4 of this thread before making these claims. I can tell my comments about striking and proper punching techniques went over your head. You really have no idea what you are talking about here. I am sorry you are insulted but because you get a blackbelt in an art that mass produces black belts like they are going out of style does not mean squat. Having a blackbelt in a korean art like TKD/TSD or regular karate hardly makes you a striker.

What sort of striking experience do you think would qualify someone as a, let's say, competent striker? Let's not even get into "world class." Are you a competent striker?

And just for what it's worth, unless you're suggesting that striking is stupid, your analogy is pretty... well, it doesn't work.

 

[Tez3]

Not every single MMA fighter is 'brilliant', not every single boxer is either. many in martial arts aren't fantastic fighters but to make such a blanket statement that MMA fighters aren't strikers is odd to say the least. I have seen hundreds of fighters too all over Europe, live not on the television, I haven't counted those, have promoted over thirty fight nights, have refereed plenty of MMA pro rules fights as well as corner several pro fighters and many of those strikers would give a pro boxer a run for their money if not KO them.
Many MMA fighters I know also compete in K1 kickboxing, in the Netherlands especially there is a strong tradition of kickboxing with MMA fighters coming from that background Alistair Overreem comes to mind here as well as Melvin Manhoef. Antoni Hardonk trains under legend Ernesto Hoost. Here we have Gary Turner, who has two K1 titles to his name as well as runner up in European K1.
I didn't mention Anderson Silva at all, not sure why he came up in conversation and nor why I should stop mentioning him?


Having a black belt for me meant fighting for it, we are expected to in our club, fight, not spar actually fight. We dont belong to any organisation and mine is only the second black belt earned in eleven years we've been going. We train professional MMA fighters as well as promote fight nights, my instructor is a damn good striker who comes from a Judo and Shotkan full contact background. The karate full contact competitions here as I imagine they are in most places are hard and not for wimps. The striking there is excellent. I've just started JKD as well and I'm impressed with the striking I see there as well because believe it or not I do know about punching and striking, in fact I know quite a bit about the game of MMA. I've had very good instructors including Ian 'The Machine' Freeman, UFC veteran as well as others.

 

[ElfTengu]

I have no doubt that traditional martial arts (TMA) can beat MMA, as long as some simple criteria are in place, as follows:

1. The TMA practitioner would have to spend the same amount of time and effort on their 'martial' training and also on their fitness and stamina training as the MMAist.

2. The TMA practitioner would have to have a training methodology that included frequent pressure training against other fighting styles including all arts that are popularly incorporated into MMA, e.g. Muay Thai, BJJ, Greco Roman, Boxing etc.

3. Any such pressure training would have to be against someone who is a currently active and accomplished MMAist themselves, to 'keep it real'.

4. The TMA practitioner must know from actual experience what it is like to be punched repeatedly about the head and body, and kicked, slammed and mounted by a strong person without losing their head or will to fight.

5. To enable the TMA practitioner to obey rule No.1 of self defence and to run away from the encounter if at all possible, the TMA practitioner must be able to outrun most MMAists over a straight mile, including parkour-esque negotiation of obstacles.

The question is, how many of you or the people you train with, satisfy these criteria? Not many I bet.

 

[Tez3]

I have no doubt that traditional martial arts (TMA) can beat MMA, as long as some simple criteria are in place, as follows:

1. The TMA practitioner would have to spend the same amount of time and effort on their 'martial' training and also on their fitness and stamina training as the MMAist.

2. The TMA practitioner would have to have a training methodology that included frequent pressure training against other fighting styles including all arts that are popularly incorporated into MMA, e.g. Muay Thai, BJJ, Greco Roman, Boxing etc.

3. Any such pressure training would have to be against someone who is a currently active and accomplished MMAist themselves, to 'keep it real'.

4. The TMA practitioner must know from actual experience what it is like to be punched repeatedly about the head and body, and kicked, slammed and mounted by a strong person without losing their head or will to fight.

5. To enable the TMA practitioner to obey rule No.1 of self defence and to run away from the encounter if at all possible, the TMA practitioner must be able to outrun most MMAists over a straight mile, including parkour-esque negotiation of obstacles.

The question is, how many of you or the people you train with, satisfy these criteria? Not many I bet.

I have just the MMA fighter for this challenge, he's called James Saville, has a TKD black belt and is one of the best MMA fighters I know, he's quite young still not 20 yet but is also amazing at parkour. Have a look on You Tube for him.

 

[Steve]

I have just the MMA fighter for this challenge, he's called James Saville, has a TKD black belt and is one of the best MMA fighters I know, he's quite young still not 20 yet but is also amazing at parkour. Have a look on You Tube for him.

If I'm getting ElfTengu's post, I think he's suggesting that there are some but not many. Taking it a step further, it looks like James Saville trains at least some BJJ, too. Won a couple of fights by submission.

As I said, if I'm understanding ElfTengu (and I might not be), he's suggesting that most traditional training doesn't include the things he listed that he considers the keys to being effective. But martial artists in TMA styles who do these things CAN make it work. If I'm getting it right, I can agree. I might not agree entirely with his specific criteria, but I've said many times that it's not the techniques, but the training methods that I think are the problem. And just recently in another thread, I said that I believe that most styles have internalized training philosophies. Some bad and some good.