JKD vs. MMA

[Tez3]

Xael, you've seen every single MMA fighter in the world then to be able to announce that MMA fighters stand up is poor? Most of these men and women in MMA are actually masters in their own right, most I know have Dan grades in a TMA, you can't judge the thousands of MMA fighters there are by a few you have seen. Btw that includes Americans like Chuck Lidell as well as Europeans and Asians. The myth that people wander into an MMA gym and after 6 months come out as fighters is just that, a myth. Most fighters I know and know of have spent years training.

Again though the idea that MMA people can't translate their skills into SD is being touted, this is incorrect, we can fight no rules just the same as anyone. We can do eye gouges as good as the next person, if that's what is called for. We don't have to stop doing a techniques just because usually in the cage the ref will stop it if it becomes too much, we can carry it through when needed, we can adapt techniques for the 'street' as well as anyone else can.

Please do your research before rubbishing MMA, actually look at what people train before repeating the insulting statement that MMA fighters are jacks of all trades. It's not true and it is insulting.

 

[James Kovacich]

Okay let me put the sentence around the other way "it's showing offness and American money". Theres no arguing that there's more money in America than the rest of the world to put into things like this and that money talks.


from London Shootfighters

Sami Berik v Abdul Mohamed. Sami's background is CMA, Abdul's is Olympic wrestling. Abdul is trained by Ian 'The Machine' Freeman who beat Frank Mir very convincingly in the UFC, you can see him cornering Abdul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyrv7mUyc50&feature=related

I have loads more but I also have to go to work lol. I hope the first one goes someway to show that MMA fighters don't have bad stand up skills. Most of our fighters come from a TMa background. Abdul came here from Afghanistan a long time ago, he was in their Olympic wrestling team. He's a nice guy though, Sami is brilliant, has a wicked website if you want to look, is very into his Chinses martial arts. His sister also fights.

I'm sorry but I didn't see the superiority from your clips that I'm thinking you expected me to see. MMA today versus the early days is a very level playing field. I'm thinking for some reason you just have issues with MMA in the USA.

My opinion and you could ignore it. There isn't anything to prove either way.

 

[Tez3]

I'm sorry but I didn't see the superiority from your clips that I'm thinking you expected me to see. MMA today versus the early days is a very level playing field. I'm thinking for some reason you just have issues with MMA in the USA.

My opinion and you could ignore it. There isn't anything to prove either way.

It's your opinion and you're wrong especially as I've told you I don't like the UFC. I have several friends who have fought on promotions in the USA, big shows at that and there's no problem with those promotions. I have firends who have fought on the UFC and they share my opinion. One of the issues I have with the UFC is that there's no female fights on them.
I wasn't posting the clips up to prove anything, you seem to think this is some sort of contest and I'm saying British and European fights are better. I'm not, I'm saying for the umpteenth time I don't like the UFC and what its doing. The clips you wanted to see and for one thing perhaps I did hope to prove, not to you, was that MMA fighters do have the good stand up skills some have said they haven't. All I'm saying is that there good MMA all around the world and the majority of whats on UFC isn't good MMA.

I don't know why you persist in making this about me and America, perhaps you're hoping to draw some sort of hate posts towards me, but I will keep repeating I dislike the UFC and I dislike the way it's taking MMA, I also dislike the idea of MMA that people get from only seeing the UFC. Perhaps you could disengage the idea from your brain that the UFC and America is the same thing and I'm not anti American when I say I hate the UFC and TUF or perhaps thats it? It is American and to hate one thing American is to hate America.

 

[James Kovacich]

it's American money and showing offness!

Thats why. You said it, not me and you tried to turn the table by saying it was an American company. If you would of never said that I probably wouldn't of said anything at all.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the issues I have with the UFC is that there's no female fights on them.

Yeah, I can dig that. I think Dana White is a misogynist and is turning off a potential market when it comes to MMA. Apparently, according to his business plan, only young men full of testosterone like to fight, therefore he relegates women to bikinis and number placards.

That's a a load of rubbish.

 

[dancingalone]

Yeah, I can dig that. I think Dana White is a misogynist and is turning off a potential market when it comes to MMA. Apparently, according to his business plan, only young men full of testosterone like to fight, therefore he relegates women to bikinis and number placards.

That's a a load of rubbish.

White and his Zuffa bosses are in it to make money. He's said multiple times that there is no money in women's fights, that he would have a female division if the numbers justified it.

I'll accept what he says at face value. It's true enough that women's sports outside of tennis just aren't cash cows, and many are in fact money losers. We only have to look at the shrinkage of the WNBA in the US, a league that the NBA pumped millions of dollars into in vain. Many LPGA tournaments have folded recently, and even today ladies boxing lags in popularity behind men's.

 

[Makalakumu]

White and his Zuffa bosses are in it to make money. He's said multiple times that there is no money in women's fights, that he would have a female division if the numbers justified it.

I'll accept what he says at face value. It's true enough that women's sports outside of tennis just aren't cash cows, and many are in fact money losers. We only have to look at the shrinkage of the WNBA in the US, a league that the NBA pumped millions of dollars into in vain. Many LPGA tournaments have folded recently, and even today ladies boxing lags in popularity behind men's.

I see plenty of women in the crowd and at the pub viewing these events. This IS a lot different from a team sport. You get some good females with honest talent and put them up on the PPV and you are going to capture a lot of new fans. I think about the girls out here in Hawaii and about how many of these titas are training in MMA gyms and fighting in small productions. It's just another glass ceiling folks.

We need a legitimate organization to compete with the UFC and show just how much talent these women have. Dana White can eat crow.

 

[Tez3]

it's American money and showing offness!

Thats why. You said it, not me and you tried to turn the table by saying it was an American company. If you would of never said that I probably wouldn't of said anything at all.

So it's just about where words are placed in a sentence? good grief, if we have to watch our spelling, punctuation and grammar a lot of us will never post. So a an adjective and noun was put the wrong way round and you took it personally? Still if you want to take it that way and are going to cry insult whatever I write, there is a lot of American showing offness in the UFC, America invented the advertising industry so showing off is just part of that. It does scream at you its the best in the world etc etc and while it's plainly not it is perhaps the biggest now Pride has gone. The UFC is the same as the professional wrestling circuit, lots of money and lots of show business.

On the subject of women Dana White has also said that women will never fight on the UFC as he doesn't want to see women fighting, it has little to do with money. He's a business man and there's a lot of very good women fighters, look at the sheer amount Japan has but he has tapped into a certain audience who are willing not just to pay to watch the fights but to buy all the merchandise, it's this same audience that annoys so many TMA people with their macho posturing and fanboy smack talk leading many to believe that this is what MMA is all about, it isn't, it's what UFC is all about. The smaller shows in the UK and Europe as well as in the States don't get their audiences off the UFCs back, they get them because they have local fighters with support. The UFC has done little for grass roots MMA and competition, it doesn't encourage young fighters, the TUF is a farce, a reality show for television addicts.

I would love someone to come along with a big serious promotion where women aren't reduced to dolls and the fighters are the best along with encouragement for up and coming fighters.

 

[dancingalone]

We need a legitimate organization to compete with the UFC and show just how much talent these women have. Dana White can eat crow.

I just don't see it. Everyone likes money right? Why is this idea an untapped one if it is such a sure thing? In the US, there is NO draw at all for women's boxing or women's kickboxing. Why would women's MMA be any different?

For whatever reason, whether it be sexism or not, Americans aren't rushing out to watch ladies' sports. Tennis is the sole exception I can think of where the women's tour rivals the men's.

 

[Makalakumu]

I just don't see it. Everyone likes money right? Why is this idea an untapped one if it is such a sure thing? In the US, there is NO draw at all for women's boxing or women's kickboxing. Why would women's MMA be any different?

For whatever reason, whether it be sexism or not, Americans aren't rushing out to watch ladies' sports. Tennis is the sole exception I can think of where the women's tour rivals the men's.

When you watch a MMA PPV, do you turn off the fight when women fight? I don't think anybody does. This isn't part of Dana White's business plan because he has stated that he simply doesn't want to see women fight. It's not a money thing.

I don't think anyone should force him to change, but I think a competitor could run some women's fights and be just as popular as the UFC.

 

[Tez3]

The USA has a great many talented female athletes, they are obvious in the Olympics and the World Championships aren't they watched? We have them over in Europe a lot for various track meetings and are well known to us. You also have good showjumpers and eventers. The national womens soccer team does very well. The gymnasts and swimmers do well. Surely someone must watch them other than us outside the USA?

 

[dancingalone]

When you watch a MMA PPV, do you turn off the fight when women fight? I don't think anybody does. This isn't part of Dana White's business plan because he has stated that he simply doesn't want to see women fight. It's not a money thing.

I don't think anyone should force him to change, but I think a competitor could run some women's fights and be just as popular as the UFC.

White may have personal reasons to not want to watch women's MMA. I still argue that if there was financial reason for the UFC adding a women's division, he would, regardless of his personal feelings.

And I believe some of the smaller promotions in the US do show a women's fight from time to time. It would be interesting to measure what marginal value in dollars such fights add, if any at all.

As I said, there aren't many examples of successful professional women's sports. I see no reason to chide White and the UFC for this.

 

[dancingalone]

The USA has a great many talented female athletes, they are obvious in the Olympics and the World Championships aren't they watched? We have them over in Europe a lot for various track meetings and are well known to us. You also have good showjumpers and eventers. The national womens soccer team does very well. The gymnasts and swimmers do well. Surely someone must watch them other than us outside the USA?

Gymnastics gets relatively good TV ratings, particular around Olympics time. The other sports you mention are ratings losers. Sports networks air them as cheap 'filler' programming. Even sports news programs like 'ESPN Sportscenter' get much better ratings than live casts of things like track and field.

 

[ElfTengu]

I don't know why you would make a comment about my post about you and your country when it was you that wrote above "it's American money and showing offness! " From my American opinion, thats taking a shot at Americans and their martial arts. My opinion, I'm entitled to it.

Sorry old chap (or 'dude' if you prefer).

You just have to realise that what we Brits and Eupopeans get to see of your wonderful country consists largely of plastic golden-arched burger franchises being dumped in the middle of picturesque English country villages, and TV shows about Paris Hilton looking for a new best friend.

And as far as American martial arts, it is simply that you are better at hype and promotional frenzy than the rest of the world, and that many of us have images of stars 'n' stripes satin karate gis, 'kata' cometitions where teenage acrobats somersault at lightning speed with aluminium/plastic weapons using non-existent (in real oriental arts) teachniques and movements, and that old guy who looks like a kid in those old movies standing on a pole in a 'crane' stance and dropping all comers with the world's worst drop kick.

And you seem to have more fat people and frauds than anywhere else, but this is obviously because you are the largest English-speaking (and that was difficult for me to admit ) country and are bound to have more of the bad as well as the good.

So if you occasionally get judged harshly or flippantly, blame the media for not letting us see the 'real America' often enough to alter general perception of your country.

Anyhow, I must go, Family Guy is on TV and I need to learn more about your fascinating culture.:knight2:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry old chap (or 'dude' if you prefer).

You just have to realise that what we Brits and Eupopeans get to see of your wonderful country consists largely of plastic golden-arched burger franchises being dumped in the middle of picturesque English country villages, and TV shows about Paris Hilton looking for a new best friend.

And as far as American martial arts, it is simply that you are better at hype and promotional frenzy than the rest of the world, and that many of us have images of stars 'n' stripes satin karate gis, 'kata' cometitions where teenage acrobats somersault at lightning speed with aluminium/plastic weapons using non-existent (in real oriental arts) teachniques and movements, and that old guy who looks like a kid in those old movies standing on a pole in a 'crane' stance and dropping all comers with the world's worst drop kick.

And you seem to have more fat people and frauds than anywhere else, but this is obviously because you are the largest English-speaking (and that was difficult for me to admit ) country and are bound to have more of the bad as well as the good.

So if you occasionally get judged harshly or flippantly, blame the media for not letting us see the 'real America' often enough to alter general perception of your country.

Anyhow, I must go, Family Guy is on TV and I need to learn more about your fascinating culture.:knight2:

Nothing Tez has said bothered me but for the first time reading this thread I find as an American I'm insulted,

So what you are saying is that you believe every stereotype, cartoon and sensationalized view you see is that it.

If I were to judge Brittan by what I see on TV you would then mostly be like Benny Hill and Monty Python...or on occasion James Bond.... but be assured I do not judge anyone by what I see on TV since I tend to realize much if that is a stereotype and/or sensationalized. As for cartoons, just so you know, Superman is a fictioanl character... to be honest all the super heros you see in cartoons... are... well... fictional.


I hope that did not come as to much of a shock to you dude...or should I say old chap.


And for the record, I hate the word dude

 

[Tez3]

Nothing Tez has said bothered me but for the first time reading this thread I find as an American I'm insulted,

So what you are saying is that you believe every stereotype, cartoon and sensationalized view you see is that it.

If I were to judge Brittan by what I see on TV you would then mostly be like Benny Hill and Monty Python...or on occasion James Bond.... but be assured I do not judge anyone by what I see on TV since I tend to realize much if that is a stereotype and/or sensationalized. As for cartoons, just so you know, Superman is a fictioanl character... to be honest all the super heros you see in cartoons... are... well... fictional.


I hope that did not come as to much of a shock to you dude...or should I say old chap.


And for the record, I hate the word dude

Nothing I have said was intended as as insult but now I know what insults you...............

it's Great Britain btw


No I wouldn't insult you, I don't intend to insult anyone in fact. It just that on the internet people find meanings where there are none and find insult where there is none intended. sometimes someones online personality grates on another which is what I think mine does to James K which is why he is intend on taking insult.
anyway I've just come in from my second class of JKD and have had a great time so I'm unupsettable at the moment lol!

 

[ElfTengu]

Nothing Tez has said bothered me but for the first time reading this thread I find as an American I'm insulted,

So what you are saying is that you believe every stereotype, cartoon and sensationalized view you see is that it.

If I were to judge Brittan by what I see on TV you would then mostly be like Benny Hill and Monty Python...or on occasion James Bond.... but be assured I do not judge anyone by what I see on TV since I tend to realize much if that is a stereotype and/or sensationalized. As for cartoons, just so you know, Superman is a fictioanl character... to be honest all the super heros you see in cartoons... are... well... fictional.


I hope that did not come as to much of a shock to you dude...or should I say old chap.


And for the record, I hate the word dude

At least I spelled the name of your country correctly.

Of course I don't believe in stereotyping, even though you are uncannily accurate if you imagine me to be a cross between a Monty Python character and James Bond, and I am chased around by large groups of scantily clad women like Benny Hill on a daily basis.

I was just poking fun, forgive me. It is something we do a lot in Britain.

 

[Robert Lee]

Sorry old chap (or 'dude' if you prefer).

You just have to realise that what we Brits and Eupopeans get to see of your wonderful country consists largely of plastic golden-arched burger franchises being dumped in the middle of picturesque English country villages, and TV shows about Paris Hilton looking for a new best friend.

And as far as American martial arts, it is simply that you are better at hype and promotional frenzy than the rest of the world, and that many of us have images of stars 'n' stripes satin karate gis, 'kata' cometitions where teenage acrobats somersault at lightning speed with aluminium/plastic weapons using non-existent (in real oriental arts) teachniques and movements, and that old guy who looks like a kid in those old movies standing on a pole in a 'crane' stance and dropping all comers with the world's worst drop kick.

And you seem to have more fat people and frauds than anywhere else, but this is obviously because you are the largest English-speaking (and that was difficult for me to admit ) country and are bound to have more of the bad as well as the good.

So if you occasionally get judged harshly or flippantly, blame the media for not letting us see the 'real America' often enough to alter general perception of your country.

Anyhow, I must go, Family Guy is on TV and I need to learn more about your fascinating culture.:knight2:

We have gone from JKD MMA to bashing countries. Why would you insult america When no one has insulted your country. And then to get thanked for what you said by another person from your country. I would think If someone bashed your country and its people you would think that was rude. So do you think it not rude to BASH the U S A. Perhaps you could stay on subject Not insult. Your country And The U S has so many bonds that help this world lets respect that.

 

[ElfTengu]

We have gone from JKD MMA to bashing countries. Why would you insult america When no one has insulted your country. And then to get thanked for what you said by another person from your country. I would think If someone bashed your country and its people you would think that was rude. So do you think it not rude to BASH the U S A. Perhaps you could stay on subject Not insult. Your country And The U S has so many bonds that help this world lets respect that.

I think it is equally important not to let our sense-of-humour-override kick in, a lot of what has been said has been tongue in cheek, and in any case as martial artists, namecalling should be something we can shrug off with impunity surely?

What happened was basically that it was pointed out that the trashier glitzy sensationalised side of martial arts are more prominent in the US than most other nations, although to be fair a lot are catching up. What is not fair however, is for all American martial arts to be tarred with the same brush, and of course we are all aware that on the other side of the coin the majority of the world's most respected MAists, in MMA and JKD in particular (to remain on topic), are American. JKD could now be said to be virtually 100% American as most of its top practitioners are native (in the born sense rather than the indigenous sense) or naturalised Americans, or like Bruce himself, a virtual ex-pat who became resident in the US. And the golden age of what is now known as MMA, has taken place largely in America, even if it was driven by Brasilians in the early days of UFC.So bashing the home of our art would just be silly.

No one is seriously bashing anyone else, so just lighten up guys eh?

 

[Carol]

Trouble is, tonality easily gets lost in web discussions. That's the main reason why web admins like Bob added a whole host of smilies, to help communicate when someone is really being sarcastic, or whether they are taking a shot at someone, or just goofing around. I say this as a very sarcastic person myself....had it not been for smilies I prolly would have gotten myself banned a long time ago.

This board has seen plenty of the mean and the silly...including a lot of posts that, intentionally or unintentionally, devolved in to Americans taking potshots at the UK for some reason or another, usually over SD laws, instead of capitalizing on the opportunity to have an intellectual discussion over the differences.

We DO have a sense of humor over here :lol: ... but we're a pretty serious lot. So please...let us know you're joking so we don't file you with all the other America-bashers out there. Hype the humor!