Jion vs Ge-Baek vs Koryo

[andyjeffries]

Originally Posted by mastercole
I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.
Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.

OK, I am confused. Are you saying the Chang Hon forms were created before the Oh Do Kwan existed?

I think the confusion exists because you've quoted two people:

Dirty Dog General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms

mastercole I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.

Dirty Dog Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.

Mastercole is saying that the forms were an Oh Do Kwan thing, Dirty Dog seemed to imply that they were an ITF thing and later corrected it to Oh Do Kwan.

I don't believe anyone's claiming the forms were created before the Oh Do Kwan, it's just the way you've quoted it makes it read that way.

HTH.

 

[Grenadier]

To me also, but I'm rolling with it. You likely know this already, but Jion is around a 3rd-2nd kyu pattern in Shotokan karate. Nonetheless, it's considered one of the quintessential Shotokan kata.

The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level. My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.

As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power. Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:

 

[dancingalone]

The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level. My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.

Out of curiosity does your dojo belong to a particular karate organization?

 

[Grenadier]

Out of curiosity does your dojo belong to a particular karate organization?

Yes. We're our own organization, but are also part of the Traditional Karate Do Federation (run by Bob Allen).

 

[puunui]

As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power. Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4KPEjzwDvo

Before taekwondo, I studied shotokan karate. I felt that our kata training was robotic in the sense that we were all taught to do everything exactly the same way. There was no freedom of expression allowed. I also felt that the fundamental movements were unhealthy and eventually harmful, the extreme stances, knees over toes and that sort of thing. I want to say that Kanazawa Sensei visited our dojo when I was there, but I could be wrong. A lot of people visited back then. We knew they were famous, but we didn't really pay attention to names. I read that Asai Sensei felt the same way, that the JKA movements were fundamentally flawed and so he went about changing things to be more of a natural movement. If we had done it that way, perhaps I would have stayed with Shotokan. Comparing taekwondo to shotokan karate, the movements are natural and relaxed, unlike how I felt when practicing shotokan karate. I never learned Ge Baek or any ITF tul so I have no basis for comparison.

 

[puunui]

Forgot to mention that I do appreciate my time in shotokan karate and all the japanese martial arts that I studied, because they gave me an eye for detail and sense of precision that was sometimes lacking in taekwondo in the past. Today's taekwondo is more precise, in my opinion, especially with respect to poomsae, which is a good thing.

 

[puunui]

Yes. We're our own organization, but are also part of the Traditional Karate Do Federation (run by Bob Allen).

I don't know why I have it in my head that you were part of a different organization and a style different than shotokan. I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[Kinghercules]

I don't know if you missed it, I just think you may have forgot what you wrote. But no problem, I can go back for you, copy and paste here in my post, for your convenience. Hopefully you can read it over and it will stimulate your memory.

Originally Posted by Kinghercules
Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old. You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".



Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?

Again who is "they"?

My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex.

In my post I was talkin....to....you. Here in my sentence the word "you" is referring back to the person that is replyin to this post, in particular, whom should be "mastercole"....i.e you.

In your reply to my post you said "Maybe they...." and Im askin you who are "they"?
Since it is only you and I that are goin back and forth here on this subject.

 

[Kinghercules]

Who was CHOI Hong Hi's teacher in Japan? Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?

Seriously?
Are you gonna make me go thru this.....master?

 

[Kinghercules]

Actually you are the one who disappeared and did not respond to my questions. But don't worry, I do have some good advise for you. Why not run through 5 or 6 reps of Jion Kata to get yourself ready since that has worked in the past, pull up a stool and get down to the business of discussing your opinions in the thread that you yourself started? After all, this is a discussion forum.

LOL!
Hey I gotta life.
Its fun sittin on the internet talk crap but its money out there to get and I dont like bein broke.
And besides Im not an internet gangster or internet martial artist.
So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person.

 

[Kinghercules]

The kata in the list of Kanku Dai, Bassai Dai, and Jion, are actually quite interchangeable at the brown belt through shodan level. My dojo uses Bassai Dai and Kanku Dai as the "brown belt" level kata, and starts Jion at the shodan level, while I've seen other schools use Kanku Dai and Jion, or Bassai Dai and Jion as the brown belt level kata.

As for the OP's assertion of Japanese Karate-ka performing kata in too robotic of a fashion, I'll simply have to disagree with him, since those who have excellent fundamentals will smooth out the transition between one move to the next, while still maintaining excellent focus and power. Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:

Hirokazu Kanazawa is not robotic...I agree.
But when I made that statement I was not thinkin about him.

 

[mastercole]

Again who is "they"?

My understanding of the word "they" is as follows:used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex.

In my post I was talkin....to....you. Here in my sentence the word "you" is referring back to the person that is replyin to this post, in particular, whom should be "mastercole"....i.e you.

In your reply to my post you said "Maybe they...." and Im askin you who are "they"?
Since it is only you and I that are goin back and forth here on this subject.

"They" is a hypothetical someone, just like I wrote. You might go back and read the post more carefully

 

[mastercole]

Seriously?
Are you gonna make me go thru this.....master?

You are the one that brought up the subject. I am not sure why you would open up the subject, then not want to go into it. But that's OK, I understand.

 

[mastercole]

LOL!
Hey I gotta life.
Its fun sittin on the internet talk crap but its money out there to get and I dont like bein broke.
And besides Im not an internet gangster or internet martial artist.

Martial Talk is a martial arts discussion board *on the internet*. Folks discuss martial arts here.

To discuss all things gangster, try here: http://gangstersinc.ning.com/

So the same bull I speak online Ill say to anyone in person.

You've convinced me

 

[mastercole]

OK, let's see if we can get the thread back on track, with some technical stuff.

I can't see doing Jion as a warm up before this type of sparring, which has a lot of kicking skills.

I can see though that Jion might be a good warm up for this type of sparring, which is mostly hand skills.

 

[dancingalone]

Here is a Shorin-ryu version of Jion that I rather like. The performer doesn't lock out his back leg in front stance, but that may not be a flaw in his style.

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[puunui]

Someone the likes of Kanazawa can easily demonstrate this:

.

No disrespect to Kanazawa Sensei, but if he performed to that level at the WTF World Poomsae Championships, I do not think he would win today. Compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmWUCCLNlA&feature=related

 

[Grenadier]

I don't know why I have it in my head that you were part of a different organization and a style different than shotokan. I guess it doesn't matter.

We transitioned from a hybrid Wado system (that was more Shotokan than Wado) to "pure" Shotokan several years ago. For me, it was more of a homecoming back to Shotokan anyways.



As for the older guys matching up with today's competitors? There really wouldn't be a contest, that today's competitors, who place a greater emphasis on speed and dynamics, as opposed to the older guys placing an emphasis on fundamental technique, would certainly win, by today's standards.

I would not, however, necessarily choose a top level competitor's kata / poomsae (and the methods used) to use as a baseline. To do so, could possibly de-emphasize fundamental technique, something that I simply prefer not to do. Students' tendencies will naturally come out as time goes on, and as long as what they are doing is fundamentally correct, then so be it.

I am not bashing these guys, though. The top competitors the likes of Luca Valdesi, Michael Milon, etc., are all fantastic practitioners, and I'm pretty sure that they know (or knew) how the proper fundamentals are to be performed. I simply wouldn't use their "for show" videos as a baseline.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

.

No disrespect to Kanazawa Sensei, but if he performed to that level at the WTF World Poomsae Championships, I do not think he would win today. Compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOmWUCCLNlA&feature=related

Very impressive form and technique, but difficult to compare to Kanazawa Sensei, IMO, as the two forms are so very different. As Grenedier stated, the two practitioners/generations appear (I say appear, because I am not very knowledgeable about either person in reference) to emphasize different aspects.

 

[puunui]

We transitioned from a hybrid Wado system (that was more Shotokan than Wado) to "pure" Shotokan several years ago. For me, it was more of a homecoming back to Shotokan anyways.

The headquarters of your former style was right down the road from where I grew up, so I am familiar with it. We used to see them all the time at local tournaments. One difference was they did a lot of weapons, which we never learned in Shotokan. You still do weapons, or have you given that up?

I would not, however, necessarily choose a top level competitor's kata / poomsae (and the methods used) to use as a baseline. To do so, could possibly de-emphasize fundamental technique, something that I simply prefer not to do.

Right. So what we do in hawaii is utilize the kukkiwon dvd set and what is taught at the kukkiwon instructor's course as our baseline technical standard for general or regular students, but look to competitors like GM Dang above for inspiration on presentation tips and strategies, for competition purposes.

Students' tendencies will naturally come out as time goes on, and as long as what they are doing is fundamentally correct, then so be it.

But I guess I never progressed far enough in shotokan to get that stage. When I was doing shotokan, they wanted us to do it exactly like each other, so we would look like a bunch of clones marching in a line. Of course we were just kids and maybe that had something to do with it, but I used to complain about it to my grandfather coming home from class. He said that in certain arts like painting there is a lineage where the object is to copy exactly what some other artist's work looked like and that the japanese martial arts were like that too. That concept, more than anything else, is what turned me off to the Japanese martial arts, the stifling of creative expression in favor of looking like you came off of an assembly line. I watch these shows on cable about how they make things in a factory, and I sometimes think to myself, "that could have been me, just another can of coke like the other five in a six pack."

I never got that feeling from practicing any korean martial art, which is probably why I've stayed with it for so long.