Jion vs Ge-Baek vs Koryo

[mastercole]

Yeah I know....I ignored your questions.

I answered your questions, but you ignore mine. OK.

You're like a philosophy prof.

You did state that you were looking for the meaning behind Koryo, and it's meaning is philosophical. My questions though were not particularly philosophical, but, we could avoid the whole philosophy thing and just keep it in technical terms if you like, that is if you really want to discuss it at all I mean this is a message board, where we type out messages to each other.

You wanna analyze every sentence that a person says and try to find fault in it.

If you are concerned that someone (like a Professor) might question your "arguments", you might want to do a little more research before you make argumentive statements. Especially since you like to write sentences like this "(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do forgenerations. It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation. It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)....ok back to what I was saying...LOL"

Oh, and this one: "So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak. And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea."

Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old. You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".

Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?

IDK about you but I was always told that if you cant trust or believe in you instructor then you dont need to be trainin with them.

In my post to you, the one you are ignoring, I wrote: "Personally I learned, practice and teach the Kukkiwon Poomsae because my teachers teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo and "Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea" recommends it. I trust their judgement. I have a lot of additional confidence in their recommendation as I realize that all the other Kwan's, and their knowledgeable seniors, also recommend the Kukkiwon curriculum, a curriculum with they all jointly participated in creating."

Now since my teacher told me the story behind Jion, about it being 500yrs old and comin from China, I believed him and with access to the internet you can look it up yourself. Since neither one of us lived back then it just comes down to whether or not you believe it.

So it's not cool to ask you for proof of what your teacher says, we can either believe it or not with you supplying no facts to back it up, but it is cool for you to state what my teachers say is "crap", again, with no facts from you to back it up.

Dont question me....question the ppl that has done the research. Question Itosu, Funakoshi or Matsumura. They're the ones that started the "sayin".

I can see you don't like to be questioned, that is why you are "arguing" AROUND my questions, and not addressing the subject at hand. But you are the one making the argument, you said so your self, that is why I questioned your statements.

 

[mastercole]

I didnt say that Jion was the only form for power or conditioning. I just used it as an example.
In what way do I know that Jion was conditioning me? You havent done Jion....have you, Master?
We do this form before the tournament. GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion 6 times in a row, with no brake in between at full power. His theory is "if you can do Jion 6x in a row then you are in shape." He told me how Ki Whang use to make his do Jion 5x eryday before class.
I was told that Jion is for power and conditioning. You develop power and strength when you do it correctly. As martial artist we dont focus on lifting alot of weight get strength but as a master you know this already.
Dont you......Master? :mst:

Actually I did not know what you were going to write. But thanks for answering my question.

 

[puunui]

So my question is this.....Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?

Because it's there.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Part one of two.
"(1) ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

(2) So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. (3) GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work."
1. If you think that Ge-Baek as a "Higher Form" was created from a lower form you would need to explain further. Certainly higher forms contain techniques found in lower forms. So, what?
2. As far as lauding a particular form with regard developing conditioning, power and strengthening, so what? You could say this about most forms. It would be a function of how you practice, not what you practice.
3. I think anyone who says the techniques in an empty hand pattern were tried and tested in battle either needs a reality check or is referring to an extremely limited sample. For thousands of years, long before empty hand systems were popularized soldiers going into battle had weapons. To think that a weaponless trained force could prevail is a silly notion.
I cannot address the relative "Quality" of the forms. I don’t think the question can be answered.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Part Two of Two
Now, to Ge Baek and what it teaches specifically and generally. (Note: in the past if I have referred to Chang Hon parameters some have commented that other systems do this as well. My comments are not meant to imply that anything is exclusively Chang Hon.)
In the Chang Ho series, patterns often build on previous patterns. At the lowest levels yu learn a quarter turn ,t hen half, then 3/4 then full, as well as staring with basic kicks and progressing upwards. (Again , not a statement to be taken as absolute) For each pattern in the encyclopedia each "Addittional" (new) Technicque (can often be a new variation) is explicitly stated.
For Gae Baek they are: Low Twisting Kick, Double Arc Hand High Block, Siting Stance Back Fist Strike,
Sitting Stance Scooping Block, Sitting Stance 9 Shape Block, L Stance Middle Knuckle fist Punch, X Stance Double Forearm High Block. Sitting Stance Reverse Knifehand Low Guarding Block, Sitting Stance Low Knifehand Guarding Block,
However, learning the techniques and their application for this (Dare I suggest any pattern) is only the beginning of the process. Distance and direction of the motion and application needs to be understood.
Still, as I have pointed out on other threads, there is still another level of understanding including and beyond the alternate applications universe. That level involves learning the motions / movement (including stepping shifting etc.) and being able to perform them in an efficient, well balanced, fast and powerful manner. It is the stated applications that facilitate how you learn to move. Having accomplished that, then how you utilize and morph the motion is limited only by practical considerations.
The different ways the various techniques of patterns are strung together will provide different ways of moving to be practiced and adapted as necessary.
Also, as previously mentioned, this is no a new concept. Thin "Karate Kid" Wax On Wax Off"
The lesson was the motion. After the motion became second nature, an application was shown.

 

[Kinghercules]

Part one of two.
"(1) ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

(2) So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. (3) GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work."
1. If you think that Ge-Baek as a "Higher Form" was created from a lower form you would need to explain further. Certainly higher forms contain techniques found in lower forms. So, what?
2. As far as lauding a particular form with regard developing conditioning, power and strengthening, so what? You could say this about most forms. It would be a function of how you practice, not what you practice.
3. I think anyone who says the techniques in an empty hand pattern were tried and tested in battle either needs a reality check or is referring to an extremely limited sample. For thousands of years, long before empty hand systems were popularized soldiers going into battle had weapons. To think that a weaponless trained force could prevail is a silly notion.
I cannot address the relative "Quality" of the forms. I don’t think the question can be answered.

Its no secret that Gen Choi trained in Japan but when he made the ITF forms there was a lacked creativity. Thruout all the lower forms you can see the Pians and how they have been chopped up and rearranged. Then when you get up to the BB forms you can still see the chopped up Okinawan forms with extra moves added in. To me....its over the top.

 

[Kinghercules]

Part Two of Two
Now, to Ge Baek and what it teaches specifically and generally. (Note: in the past if I have referred to Chang Hon parameters some have commented that other systems do this as well. My comments are not meant to imply that anything is exclusively Chang Hon.)
In the Chang Ho series, patterns often build on previous patterns. At the lowest levels yu learn a quarter turn ,t hen half, then 3/4 then full, as well as staring with basic kicks and progressing upwards. (Again , not a statement to be taken as absolute) For each pattern in the encyclopedia each "Addittional" (new) Technicque (can often be a new variation) is explicitly stated.
For Gae Baek they are: Low Twisting Kick, Double Arc Hand High Block, Siting Stance Back Fist Strike,
Sitting Stance Scooping Block, Sitting Stance 9 Shape Block, L Stance Middle Knuckle fist Punch, X Stance Double Forearm High Block. Sitting Stance Reverse Knifehand Low Guarding Block, Sitting Stance Low Knifehand Guarding Block,
However, learning the techniques and their application for this (Dare I suggest any pattern) is only the beginning of the process. Distance and direction of the motion and application needs to be understood.
Still, as I have pointed out on other threads, there is still another level of understanding including and beyond the alternate applications universe. That level involves learning the motions / movement (including stepping shifting etc.) and being able to perform them in an efficient, well balanced, fast and powerful manner. It is the stated applications that facilitate how you learn to move. Having accomplished that, then how you utilize and morph the motion is limited only by practical considerations.
The different ways the various techniques of patterns are strung together will provide different ways of moving to be practiced and adapted as necessary.
Also, as previously mentioned, this is no a new concept. Thin "Karate Kid" Wax On Wax Off"
The lesson was the motion. After the motion became second nature, an application was shown.

Your reply is appreciated.

 

[Kinghercules]

Actually I did not know what you were going to write. But thanks for answering my question.

Seriously?

 

[Kinghercules]

With the rude comments, it's looking more like MSUTKD was right.

Getta back bone.

 

[Kinghercules]

Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?

Wait a min.....who's "they"?
You're the one who brought it up.
Are there come other post that Ive missed in here....master?:hmm:

 

[mastercole]

Its no secret that Gen Choi trained in Japan but when he made the ITF forms there was a lacked creativity. Thruout all the lower forms you can see the Pians and how they have been chopped up and rearranged. Then when you get up to the BB forms you can still see the chopped up Okinawan forms with extra moves added in. To me....its over the top.

Who was CHOI Hong Hi's teacher in Japan? Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?

 

[mastercole]

Wait a min.....who's "they"?
You're the one who brought it up.
Are there come other post that Ive missed in here....master?:hmm:

I don't know if you missed it, I just think you may have forgot what you wrote. But no problem, I can go back for you, copy and paste here in my post, for your convenience. Hopefully you can read it over and it will stimulate your memory.

Originally Posted by Kinghercules
Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old. You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you".



Maybe they just thought your information was incorrect and ask if you had any other details -- other than hearsay?

 

[mastercole]

Getta back bone.

Actually you are the one who disappeared and did not respond to my questions. But don't worry, I do have some good advise for you. Why not run through 5 or 6 reps of Jion Kata to get yourself ready since that has worked in the past, pull up a stool and get down to the business of discussing your opinions in the thread that you yourself started? After all, this is a discussion forum.

 

[jks9199]

Things are getting a little harsh and aggressive for a website that touts itself as being "friendly." Maybe we can rein things in a bit, OK?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are you sure CHOI Hong Hi made the ITF forms?

Since you're so scrupulously correct about titles, I'm sure leaving off "General" or "GM" was an oversight.

It depends on how you define "made", I suppose. General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms. Did he do this entirely in a vaccum, with no input from other practitioners? Of course not. No more than Funakoshi Sensei "made" Karate alone. I don't believe it's ever been suggested that he did. GM PARK, Jung Tae, founder of the GTF and GM NAM Tae Hi, founder of Taekwon-Do in Vietnam were both (along with many others, I am sure) instrumental in the development of the forms. As the founder, the final decisions were made by General Choi, and the statement that he "made" the forms is not unreasonable.

Your posts in the past have made it clear that the ITF is something of an issue with you, but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational.

 

[mastercole]

Since you're so scrupulously correct about titles, I'm sure leaving off "General" or "GM" was an oversight.

I know it may seem that way, but actually I am not, ask anyone who knows me personally.

It depends on how you define "made", I suppose. General Choi founded the ITF. He developed the Chang Hon forms. Did he do this entirely in a vaccum, with no input from other practitioners? Of course not. No more than Funakoshi Sensei "made" Karate alone. I don't believe it's ever been suggested that he did. GM PARK, Jung Tae, founder of the GTF and GM NAM Tae Hi, founder of Taekwon-Do in Vietnam were both (along with many others, I am sure) instrumental in the development of the forms. As the founder, the final decisions were made by General Choi, and the statement that he "made" the forms is not unreasonable.

I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.

Your posts in the past have made it clear that the ITF is something of an issue with you, but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational.

This thread is not about issues surrounding ITF, I suggest we keep it on subject

 

[Dirty Dog]

I know it may seem that way, but actually I am not, ask anyone who knows me personally.

Actually, looking back, it would appear that you're actually only scrupulous about titles for KKW-affiliated ranks. My mistake.

I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.

Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.

This thread is not about issues surrounding ITF, I suggest we keep it on subject

You asked a question about the ITF (or, if you wish to be pedantic, it's founder and it's forms). I presumed you wanted an answer. Given your history, perhaps I'd have been better off taking it for granted that you'd only want an answer if it coincided with your predjudicies.

 

[mastercole]

Actually, looking back, it would appear that you're actually only scrupulous about titles for KKW-affiliated ranks. My mistake.

I guess I could be "scrupulous" when discussing facts. However, personally I don't care who uses what titles.

Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.

OK

You asked a question about the ITF (or, if you wish to be pedantic, it's founder and it's forms). I presumed you wanted an answer.

You are stating I asked a question about the ITF. What I actually asked was a question in regard to CHOI Hong Hi and the creation of Changhon forms, a time period well before the creation of the ITF. But make it out to be whatever you wish, or answer my question, or not, you choose.

Given your history, perhaps I'd have been better off taking it for granted that you'd only want an answer if it coincided with your predjudicies.

I think Bob Hubbard just ask members here to stop this snipping? I suggest you answer the questions I posed to you instead of turning this into a debate about what you perceive as my "history" and "prejudices."

To quote you: "but I'm sure you can manage to keep the discussion friendly, polite, and non-confrontational. "

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.

Well, everyone has their opinion. Two of the Oh Do Kwan members who were there and helped create the forms , Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo never seemd to think it unreasoneable. While they may have been the primary contributor to the forms (Hence strong Chung Do Kwan ties for gup forms) they explained the process as General Choi being the final developer / decision maker.
Just read Steve Jobs Bio. He had lots of designers and engineers working for him. Some contributing the bulk of the work. He was the final decison maker. Saying he "Made" the apple products would not be unreasoneable.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by mastercole
I think it unreasonable to state so. Changhon hyungs were created by members of the Oh Do Kwan (including CHOI Hong Hi), well before the ITF existed.
Minor error on my part. Replace "ITF" with "Oh Do Kwan", the rest remains the same.



QUOTE]

OK, I am confused. Are you saying the Chang Hon forms were created before the Oh Do Kwan existed?

Perhaps it is a timeline issue. How long after the 29th Infantry division was created was the Oh Do Kwan created. I thought it was about at the same time?