Jan Dai lik (forward elbow intention)

[kung fu fighter]

what is your definition of Jarn Dai lik (forward elbow intention)?

 

[geezer]

what is your definition of Jarn Dai lik (forward elbow intention)?

Don't have a definition. I do try to practice forward intent... but I don't have a specific definition. Can you help?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do try to practice forward intent...

The "forward intend" in the southern CMA term is called 入马 (Ru Ma). Where will you put your leading foot is important. If you can advance your leading leg between your opponent's legs and take over your opponent's "center", that will be more important than just the "forward elbow intention" IMO.

 

[yak sao]

Not a definition, but forward force, as I understand it, is engaging the triceps while at the same time, trying to deactivate the biceps as much as possible.

 

[KPM]

Don't have a definition. I do try to practice forward intent... but I don't have a specific definition. Can you help?

I see them as the same thing. In my Wing Chun, one of the key structural factors is to keep the elbow coupled with the hip for power generation as well as maintaining a strong structural support for receiving force. Therefore "forward elbow intention" is just naturally the same thing as "forward intent." If your elbows are flying out and not coupled with the hip, then you have lost some of this "forwardness", for lack of a better term. So to me, "forward intent" is the constant moving towards or into the opponent's space. This can be physical in the sense of applying pressure or movement towards his center, or even mental in the sense that you are waiting for an opportunity to do it physically. This is in contrast to the opposite strategy of trying to bait or draw someone in or "suck them in" to do some kind of grappling application or to make them chase you in hopes they will make a mistake and leave an opening. This idea of "forward intent" is what gives Wing Chun a somewhat aggressive or pro-active approach to fighting.

 

[erniewong415]

肘底力—— Tsaang = Elbow Duyh = Bottom
Lik = Force / Strength / Power

I think different lineages have different perspectives on how to define it. Most prefer to use the idea of forward intent.

I like to think of it as keep the elbow low and put your mind and intent at the elbow instead of the hand. To each their own.

But that's the literal definition.

 

[Danny T]

The "forward intend" in the southern CMA term is called 入马 (Ru Ma). Where will you put your leading foot is important. If you can advance your leading leg between your opponent's legs and take over your opponent's "center", that will be more important than just the "forward elbow intention" IMO.

Forward intent is about the linking of the elbow through the hip to the ground. In my opinion has little to do with where I place my lead leg in relation to the opponent's legs but rather in relation to his force and toward his core.

 

[Jake104]

This is an interesting subject. This is mainly what I have been training learning and pretty much thinking about in depth for the last few years. Two of my current coaches have really opened my eyes on this subject. They are wizards with energy and have really made me rethink what I thought I knew about forward energy.

First, is forward intent different than forward energy? Does the elbow really need to be in? Chu Shoung Tin demonstrates with elbow in and out. Does a lead leg matter? I'm learning that forward intent/energy has many layers. It's not just elbow hip heel structure with forward pressure. That's just the top layer. And is easy to track by the way. It's not just rushing in either. That's also easy to deflect jam or redirect and so on.

What about simultaneous angles of energies delivered at once with forward intent? Which I like to call, for lack of a better description, compound forward energy. This type of energy is very hard to read, recognize, track or counter. My previous Coach EricH once referred to it as a ghost energy or a smart energy. Which is a great description. It's a weird phoenominum . I don't have all the answers. I do know or at least have a hunch that this mystical energy can be defeated or stopped by using the same energy type in a constant manner. It always has to be on. But subtle. Easier said then done. I think it might be a who hits It first thing. So timing has something to do with it. IDK but I have felt it and I want it.

 

[Jake104]

By the way, my current coaches can produce this forward energy from any stance and any position. With no lead in a old man stance. This energy is also not just exclusive to Wing Chun . I think most all arts have it somewhere in there waiting to be unlocked. Grappling arts expecially.

 

[dlcox]

I see them as the same thing. In my Wing Chun, one of the key structural factors is to keep the elbow coupled with the hip for power generation as well as maintaining a strong structural support for receiving force. Therefore "forward elbow intention" is just naturally the same thing as "forward intent." If your elbows are flying out and not coupled with the hip, then you have lost some of this "forwardness", for lack of a better term.

I kind of always viewed this as stronger when employed defensively or as a counter method, as a means of maintaining structure under duress. I know you stated "receiving" force, but the second half talks of forward intent. Is this in context to maintenance of structure when in close during the counter? To me that makes sense. Just looking for clarification. I don't want to be off in left field chasing butterflies while everyone else is wondering what the hell I'm talking about. Just want to make sure we're having the same discussion.

 

[dlcox]

Forward intent is about the linking of the elbow through the hip to the ground. In my opinion has little to do with where I place my lead leg in relation to the opponent's legs but rather in relation to his force and toward his core.

I can't see the characters on my phone, but I think what John is referring to is commonly known as "Bi Ma-Pressing Horse" which is a fundamental bridge practice using stance. With this the arm bridge receives while the leg bridge supports, as opposed to the arm bridge supporting and the legs receiving. The stepping & foot placement helps facilitate the effectiveness of the technique. Think more Chi Jiao as opposed to Chi Shou. Both require receiving force & pressing the opponents center. In the end same results just a different route, it all still requires "Forward Intent".

 

[Kwan Sau]

Does the elbow really need to be in?

IMHO, nope. I don't take this topic/skill as literal as some of you. My take is this: like most things in WC, everything has a seed in first form. This is the BASIC IDEA ONLY. From there, it grows and matures.
Elbows in or out, lead leg or not, facing, angled, retreating footwork, circling, etc...all irrelevant IMO....the basic idea is always go forward, always seek the core of the opponent, regardless of how you / your weapons are currently positioned or aligned (because everyone can have a bad day or meet a more skilled opponent - hence we have three forms to show us basic ideas about this).
PS: the above applies to the vertical plane (i.e. standup fighting) as well as the horizontal planes (i.e. you've been taken off your feet and are lying on the ground)

 

[Marnetmar]

The elbow drives the forearm and hand/fist, and the body follows the elbow.

Does the elbow really need to be in?

In the sense that it shouldn't be out, yes. Your elbow (at least in our method) is used to drive the fist, and if it's not behind your fist then you won't be able to get much power in a straight punch. WC's straight punches require proper structural alignment to have any meaningful force.

Think of your elbow as a battering ram, so to speak.

 

[JPinAZ]

If you can advance your leading leg between your opponent's legs and take over your opponent's "center", that will be more important than just the "forward elbow intention" IMO.

Maybe in a general MA sense, but this is not the best idea for WC usage as putting your lead foot 'between' your opponent's feet gives up in your stance which limits usage of proper WC structure, mobility to adjust, gate theories as well as leverage left-to-right.

 

[Marnetmar]

No it doesn't.

 

[JPinAZ]

No it doesn't.

I'm assuming this was in reply to me. If so, thanks for sharing your objective viewpoint, it was very well thoughtout and informative...

 

[Jake104]

The elbow drives the forearm and hand/fist, and the body follows the elbow.



In the sense that it shouldn't be out, yes. Your elbow (at least in our method) is used to drive the fist, and if it's not behind your fist then you won't be able to get much power in a straight punch. WC's straight punches require proper structural alignment to have any meaningful force.

Think of your elbow as a battering ram, so to speak.

I think of my body as the battering ram not my elbow. But I don't completely disagree with your post. The elbow has it's purpose in structure and energy. But energy and structure do not solely rely or exist through elbow hip alignment.

Here's an example from the first form that I have thought a lot about. The double Fak Sao section. When I throw the double faks sao's out. My elbows aren't in. Instead they are up. The power generation is a whipping/wave energy that rolls up and out from the ground. From heel, knee, hip, arm to hand. Notice I didn't include shoulder because shoulder is pinned. The elbow is aligned but not in a downward positions. It's facing up. Now in my lineage we drop the elbow after fak to a ding sao. I think that's what it's called. Either way you can generate tremendous sideward full body power in that section. If you watch IP Man SLT video he also emphasizes a slight whipping energy when he performs that part.

What is also interesting about that section of the double Faks Sao's section is that, the energy is a splitting energy going in two different direction, but comes up from the same source. Which is very interesting in itself. I feel an expansion in my chest which I'm learning is a useful energy in standing arm locks and bars. Like I said this is the secret sauce for me. It's not about technique so much anymore. Like my coach says, "it's all energy and chi sao. I only know one lock and one throw" etc. This coach doesn't do wing chun, but his chi sao is better than mine! It blows my mind when a coach shows me a different way to use forward energy.

 

[Jake104]

You know, now that I think about it. The fak sao whipping energy is a lot like a good boxer jab with body behind it? IDK, but thats what I like about the forms. They make you think.

 

[kung fu fighter]

one of the key structural factors is to keep the elbow coupled with the hip for power generation as well as maintaining a strong structural support for receiving force. Therefore "forward elbow intention" is just naturally the same thing as "forward intent." If your elbows are flying out and not coupled with the hip, then you have lost some of this "forwardness", for lack of a better term. So to me, "forward intent" is the constant moving towards or into the opponent's space. This can be physical in the sense of applying pressure or movement towards his center, or even mental in the sense that you are waiting for an opportunity to do it physically. This is in contrast to the opposite strategy of trying to bait or draw someone in or "suck them in" to do some kind of grappling application or to make them chase you in hopes they will make a mistake and leave an opening. This idea of "forward intent" is what gives Wing Chun a somewhat aggressive or pro-active approach to fighting.

KPM great defintion of Jarn Dai lik (forward elbow intention)!

Jarn Dai lik (forward elbow intention) is only one component of the 6 directional force vector model necessary for whole body power. The reason i started this thread was because I found too many wing chun practioners try to unnaturally force their elbow into their centerline. I believe this to be incorrect. The 6 directional force vector serves as a great teaching aid for what the correct positioning in wck or any internal martial art should be.

 

[Jake104]

Maybe in a general MA sense, but this is not the best idea for WC usage as putting your lead foot 'between' your opponent's feet gives up in your stance which limits usage of proper WC structure, mobility to adjust, gate theories as well as leverage left-to-right.

I agree obviously, I hit the agree button. But can you elaborate more on this subject? I'm interested.