It's all the same

[Zeny]

A lot of MMA people are as I said TMA as well and have done kata, some still do. Kata also is not designed to make anyone 'brutal' it's designed to teach techniques and how to defend yourself in a civilian environment not a competitive one. Not all MMA fighters are effective and not all MMA'ers are fighters.

What you said is certainly plausible.

The impression i get from local mma gyms and youtube videos (see example below) is that young people who joined the mma gyms directly and who have no previous kata training would not have received any kata training from those mma gyms. I have a healthy respect for their understanding of their body and biomechanics and fighting ability despite them not having trained in any kata.

 

[Tez3]

We certainly have people joining us with no previous experience in martial arts but many of us who have been in martial arts for years have TMA experience. There's still plenty of people coming from TMA into MMA and without leaving it. I have a foot in both worlds which is a good place to be.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What if Greg Jackson invents a kata for his MMA guys. I dont' think that's beyond the realm of possibility. Would you consider that "real" kata? Would you believe that it imparts the less visible aspects of kata?

Sure, it would be a kata.

As to what it would impart, I think that would have a lot to do with what is taught, and how it is taught, and how it is studied.

I have to take a sidebar at this point and say that in my humble opinion, not many students of traditional martial arts that have kata in them ever delve into the depths of the kata. Most, I believe, practice kata for the 'bunkai' or direct applications it contains. Different martial artists may extract more or less from a given kata, and may want to extract more or less from the kata, but few take it to extremes. A given kata can have a few very obvious, very powerful techniques, and some may find more subtle nuanced techniques inside that same kata. Few will take it to the point where they begin to see things like how it teaches stance, transition, breathing, and even fewer still to the point where it shows the yin and yang of living. But it's in there, whether people wish to go that far or not. My point was that MMA seems to me to be concerned with competition and fighting and that's certainly a valid application of kata, for anyone, MMA or TMA. There is more there. Would an MMA person invent a kata and go looking for a way to live their lives and structure their inner being? I'm not sure it's in there. You tell me.

Second, you say, "if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from." Certainly, it's true that if kata isn't there, it isn't. But it does not necessarily follow that the benefits of kata are not there, unless you're seriously suggesting that you know kata is the ONLY way to achieve personal insight, a deeper understanding of biomechanics or personal growth in one's every day life outside of fighting. Where I think you're losing your way here, is to mistake your meaningful path for THE ONLY meaningful path.

No of course kata is not the only way. It's part of a 'do' (prounounced 'dough' for any readers unfamiliar with the term). Flower arranging is a do. Calligraphy is a do. Tea-making is a do. Kata is part of *my* do, karatedo.

What I was trying to say was simply that kata, in addition to providing techniques that can be used in fighting and self-defense, encodes more information for those who want it. I did not think of Mixed Martial Arts as a discipline that put a lot of value on those 'extras'. And that's OK, I have no problem with that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I must say, steve makes a compelling argument.

I think, when an mma guy or girl does a sidekick on a punching bag 100 times, that's a one step kata right there.

On the surface, yes. But is there a way of living one's live encoded in that kata? It teaches what it appears to teach on the surface; the kick.

Your icon (the Tao) is representative of a do (or tao or dao or 'way'). Kicking a bag over and over teaches you to kick a bag well. You may find it provides additional instruction on foot placement, balance, power, and timing, and that's all good too. Where is the 'do' in it?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A lot of MMA people are as I said TMA as well and have done kata, some still do. Kata also is not designed to make anyone 'brutal' it's designed to teach techniques and how to defend yourself in a civilian environment not a competitive one. Not all MMA fighters are effective and not all MMA'ers are fighters.

And my argument is that kata provides so much more than that. For those who wish to seek it.

 

[Tez3]

And my argument is that kata provides so much more than that. For those who wish to seek it.

I disagree, I don't believe there's more to it than martial arts. should we carry on discussing this here or would it be considered, derailing the OP? it's an interesting subject that we could discuss for a while I feel.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I disagree, I don't believe there's more to it than martial arts. should we carry on discussing this here or would it be considered, derailing the OP? it's an interesting subject that we could discuss for a while I feel.

different room, because I have a lot to say, but I don't want to mess up this thread

 

[Tez3]

different room, because I have a lot to say, but I don't want to mess up this thread

Perhaps Bill would like to kick it off on a fresh thread? Pretty sure it would be a good clean debate . There's some interesting views I think to be gone over. If it's kept to just a conversation about our different view points of kata and we don't get the 'kata is rubbish' brigade chiming in it will be fine. I think we agree on kata as in it's usefulness if not on why it is useful or perhaps why it's more useful than we think?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Perhaps Bill would like to kick it off on a fresh thread? Pretty sure it would be a good clean debate . There's some interesting views I think to be gone over. If it's kept to just a conversation about our different view points of kata and we don't get the 'kata is rubbish' brigade chiming in it will be fine. I think we agree on kata as in it's usefulness if not on why it is useful or perhaps why it's more useful than we think?

I would like to hear how it has helped and if that same benefit is possible if Kata weren't trained. By giving personal experiences we can have less theory and more reality.

 

[drop bear]

as good as training with kata? kata doesn't give you feeling for distance, weight and resisting opponents. in case of grappling not even the right execution (maybe in bunkai). also in a real fight one shouldn't pull his shoulders back or make hikite instead of a guard what every boxing beginner learns. i think this is why there is a lot of tma bashing. the training methods, not the techniques which originated from tma.

Kata isn't the issue.

Justifying your training with fanciful notions. Dogma and stories is.

 

[drop bear]

This is becoming mixed martial arts vs traditional martial arts, and I did not intend that. Apologies for that.

My point was simpler, but I got off track.

If mixed martial arts are using techniques seen in Kara, that clearly the tenents of that particular movement are sound.

However MMA does not have kata in it, does it?

No kata is fine. Their use of the practical aspects of it are important for what they do. But if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from. That is all. You cannot learn the inner aspects of something you do not practice.

Just as Steve and Tez pointed out to me. All I really know of MMA is that it has no kata study. If it does, I'd like to see it.

Look up Connor mcgregor movement training.

 

[drop bear]

Bill, couple of different thoughts. First, here's Lyoto Machida doing a kata:

And here's GSP doing a kata:

I'm very curious. Is this evidence of kata in MMA? I presume not, but there it is.

What if Greg Jackson invents a kata for his MMA guys. I dont' think that's beyond the realm of possibility. Would you consider that "real" kata? Would you believe that it imparts the less visible aspects of kata?

Second, you say, "if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from." Certainly, it's true that if kata isn't there, it isn't. But it does not necessarily follow that the benefits of kata are not there, unless you're seriously suggesting that you know kata is the ONLY way to achieve personal insight, a deeper understanding of biomechanics or personal growth in one's every day life outside of fighting. Where I think you're losing your way here, is to mistake your meaningful path for THE ONLY meaningful path.

Mmaers do it. Understand it as much as anyone and like everyone else. Uses the elements of it that individually benefit them.

The martial arts world of secrets is gone.

We do stance training from ballet and gymnastics that we sourced from a movement coach. It is basically the same thing.

 

[Zeny]

On the surface, yes. But is there a way of living one's live encoded in that kata? It teaches what it appears to teach on the surface; the kick.

Your icon (the Tao) is representative of a do (or tao or dao or 'way'). Kicking a bag over and over teaches you to kick a bag well. You may find it provides additional instruction on foot placement, balance, power, and timing, and that's all good too. Where is the 'do' in it?

Very interesting bill. This is certainly something new to me. I did not know that one could extract from kata a way of living one's life. However, if we go beyond the benefits of understanding balance, biomechanics and force generation, to extract from kata a way of living one's life, would we be moving beyond the realm of martial arts and moving into a higher or another realm, which could possibility be called the 'spiritual' realm?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Very interesting bill. This is certainly something new to me. I did not know that one could extract from kata a way of living one's life. However, if we go beyond the benefits of understanding balance, biomechanics and force generation, to extract from kata a way of living one's life, would we be moving beyond the realm of martial arts and moving into a higher or another realm, which could possibility be called the 'spiritual' realm?

I guess the way Tai Chi has become a way of living one's life. Many people will do the forms minus any understanding of the martial arts aspects.

 

[Buka]

I think anyone practicing Martial Arts for a good period of time can, and should, apply it to the way they live their life. Martial Arts certainly changes you. Some more than others.

 

[Ironbear24]

I love that video. Maybe we can finally put an end to all the TMA guys disparaging MMA and we can all agree that it will work just fine and is just as good as training with kata.

I been saying that for awhile. Well something similar, that TMA and MMA are so similar it is silly to distance them from eachother by using these labels.

 

[Ironbear24]

You know what you are talking about in your experience of what you have seen which is not the same as knowing what you are talking about as regards all karateka, all training. Your experience is limited. Mine is where some styles are concerned, I know only a little about TKD for example having trained a few times with TKD people, I don't assume for one minute that all TKD train as they do, I don't assume either that because they train differently from me they are therefore worse than me. You can believe me too than I have seen MMA places where they can't hit pads/bags properly and certainly can't fight decently.
I have no experience with WKF but find it hard to believe that all round the world thousands and thousands of instructors are getting it wrong as you allege. You've seen a few bad instructors/students and assume they must all be the same. I watched the karate (WKF organised) in the European Games last year, it was pretty good, some quite brutal fights. There was also TKD, Sombo and Judo comps as well all good watches.

Yeah pretty much. It's like if I were to talk about wing chung, a friend of mine showed me very basic stuff because he himself was a begginer. It would be unfair for me to nudge it based on the way be performed when he showed me it.

Also. Kata is different for everyone, I was taught many katas and in kenpo there are many as well. Kata as I was told is basically laying out a bunch of tools in front of you, and studying each one closely. Kata helps you learn how to move smoothly and efficiently instead of blocky and clumsilly. There can be spiritual aspects to it but in my experiences there was little to none of that involved.

That however was the way I was taught and shown it. I know to many others it does have a spiritual aspect to it and that's fine, but for me I really enjoy the training aspect of kata.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think anyone practicing Martial Arts for a good period of time can, and should, apply it to the way they live their life. Martial Arts certainly changes you. Some more than others.

For me it just naturally started to bleed into the way I live my life. I'm not sure if it's because martial arts promotes self awareness or if it's just so involving that the brain thinks about martial arts all the time. Just the other day I just realized that I walk differently now. I'm not sure how long I've been doing it but now when I walk, it is as if I'm practicing rooting. My walking is more deliberate now with more purpose other than just putting one leg in front of the other.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The tangential discussion is actually more interesting to me than the original post. As others have said, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that there are plenty of techniques from karate that work in a MMA context or that those techniques can be found in kata. The arguments are usually concerning the usefulness of different training methods.

Random thoughts:

I'm not a MMA fighter. I'm not training for competition and I probably couldn't get medical clearance at this point even if I wanted to. That said, I do train in the primary component arts of modern MMA (BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling). I do integrate those arts (and others) into my personal fighting style. I do occasionally jump into the "MMA" classes and spar with amateur and pro MMA fighters under MMA rules. Should I be considered a "MMA practitioner" or just a well-rounded martial artists who sometimes plays with the MMA folks?

Not counting a few months of TKD from decades ago, I'm new to the practice of forms/katas. Just started practicing Wing Tsun back in January. In that art, the forms seem to be not any kind of direct simulation of a fight or even a catalog of literal techniques so much as a sequence of isolation exercises designed for training certain body structures and concepts. I'm not getting any life lessons from it yet, but you can check back with me in a few years and see what I say then.

How many MMA fighters train, not to fight, but to gain insight into themselves? How many train to apply martial arts concepts to their everyday lives (excepting those currently in the news for doing exactly that, but not in a good way)? How many extract enough understanding of a given movement to extrapolate what else could be done with the same biomechanical principles? How many seek to extend application?

Maybe I am indeed missing it, but I don't see MMA as presenting the opportunity for a rich inner life, development of spirit or morals, a life path as opposed to a lifestyle.

As I noted, I'm not a MMA fighter, so I can't speak for them. I will say that my BJJ training helps me gain insight into myself, can apply to my everyday life, has extensible principles, and so on. That's despite the lack of kata.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just started practicing Wing Tsun back in January. In that art, the forms seem to be not any kind of direct simulation of a fight or even a catalog of literal techniques so much as a sequence of isolation exercises designed for training certain body structures and concepts.

If Wing Tsun is like most kung fu, then those exercises are training muscle memory. The simulation that it's training is the movement that the body will instinctively make when the body is in a certain position. Someone will grab you are punch you a certain way and the Wing Tsun will just kick in on it's own. Think of it as training a natural response vs a planned response.