It's all the same

[Buka]

That was terrific.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I love that video. Maybe we can finally put an end to all the TMA guys disparaging MMA and we can all agree that it will work just fine and is just as good as training with kata.

But how many of those learned the techniques they were using without doing them in kata at all?

 

[MAfreak]

as good as training with kata? kata doesn't give you feeling for distance, weight and resisting opponents. in case of grappling not even the right execution (maybe in bunkai). also in a real fight one shouldn't pull his shoulders back or make hikite instead of a guard what every boxing beginner learns. i think this is why there is a lot of tma bashing. the training methods, not the techniques which originated from tma.

 

[Tez3]

as good as training with kata? kata doesn't give you feeling for distance, weight and resisting opponents. in case of grappling not even the right execution (maybe in bunkai). also in a real fight one shouldn't pull his shoulders back or make hikite instead of a guard what every boxing beginner learns. i think this is why there is a lot of tma bashing. the training methods, not the techniques which originated from tma.

You can't generalise though, I've seen good and bad training in MMA and TMA. The other thing is that karateka don't just train kata and bunkai, they also use many methods of training. Too many people don't seem to understand what actually training means. MMA fighters don't fight in training which many seem to think that's all they do, TMA people don't just do kata. All training is diverse and allows different techniques, different scenarios, different training partners etc to be explored making for well rounded martial artists in whatever they do.

 

[MAfreak]

i was karateka, i know what i'm talking. depending on styles often even the kumite training is bad. some don't know how to hit pads or bags since they focus on smi contact point fighting. its allround bad training methods. at least in wkf.

 

[Tez3]

i was karateka, i know what i'm talking. depending on styles often even the kumite training is bad. some don't know how to hit pads or bags since they focus on smi contact point fighting. its allround bad training methods. at least in wkf.

You know what you are talking about in your experience of what you have seen which is not the same as knowing what you are talking about as regards all karateka, all training. Your experience is limited. Mine is where some styles are concerned, I know only a little about TKD for example having trained a few times with TKD people, I don't assume for one minute that all TKD train as they do, I don't assume either that because they train differently from me they are therefore worse than me. You can believe me too than I have seen MMA places where they can't hit pads/bags properly and certainly can't fight decently.
I have no experience with WKF but find it hard to believe that all round the world thousands and thousands of instructors are getting it wrong as you allege. You've seen a few bad instructors/students and assume they must all be the same. I watched the karate (WKF organised) in the European Games last year, it was pretty good, some quite brutal fights. There was also TKD, Sombo and Judo comps as well all good watches.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I love that video. Maybe we can finally put an end to all the TMA guys disparaging MMA and we can all agree that it will work just fine and is just as good as training with kata.

I don't disparage MMA. I do get a chuckle out of the guys who don't train at all wearing Tapout shirts but that's about it. I think MMA is brutal, difficult, requires great discipline and extensive training. Much respect. I would not want to tangle with any of them.

That said, I'll agree with you that how they train "works fine" in lieu of kata for the purposes they need it to work. They are typically not seekers on a path, I believe; or at least not on a path I comprehend. Nor should they be, for what they do, necessarily. But kata provides so much more than the externally-visible. This, they won't get. Also don't need, so I get it. But "as good as kata?" Only for their style of competition. Otherwise, no.

You don't need to know rocket science to fire a rocket launcher. But if you do know rocket science, a rocket launcher takes on more capability. That's all.

 

[Steve]

But how many of those learned the techniques they were using without doing them in kata at all?

I think there's a correlation/causation issue here.

As for the rest, I agree with tez. There are misconceptions from all sides. I also agree with mafreak that it is not the technique, but how it's trained that matters. There are good and bad schools within every style.

 

[Steve]

I don't disparage MMA. I do get a chuckle out of the guys who don't train at all wearing Tapout shirts but that's about it. I think MMA is brutal, difficult, requires great discipline and extensive training. Much respect. I would not want to tangle with any of them.

That said, I'll agree with you that how they train "works fine" in lieu of kata for the purposes they need it to work. They are typically not seekers on a path, I believe; or at least not on a path I comprehend. Nor should they be, for what they do, necessarily. But kata provides so much more than the externally-visible. This, they won't get. Also don't need, so I get it. But "as good as kata?" Only for their style of competition. Otherwise, no.

You don't need to know rocket science to fire a rocket launcher. But if you do know rocket science, a rocket launcher takes on more capability. That's all.

my belief is that what seems complex and deep to you seems so because you understand enough about it to grasp its depth. What seems less complex to you seems so because you lack the depth of understanding to see its depth.

 

[JowGaWolf]

yes some can and some cant, but thats not why kata gets put down by those who dont practice it. its because the people who put down kata see no value in it. they have a biased out look on something they have never done and/ or dont understand.
i will admit that a large majority of kata practitioners also have no deep understanding of kata, but kata in and of itself does not make someone a good fighter nor does it make them a poor fighter. its been said 1000 times, its just another tool in the box for training.
critics of kata will see a poor quality martial artist and equate that with kata. they seem the forget there are many MMA guys like George St. pierre who i believe was a kyokushin guy. im sure he spent years and years doing kata and probably still does. it didnt seem to effect him in any negative way.

Correct
To go back to the music example. Kata is like the notes. The application is like playing a song. If the person can't play the song if they don't practice the song. Not every song doesn't fit every mood. Many people practice Kata but they do not practice application.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

my belief is that what seems complex and deep to you seems so because you understand enough about it to grasp its depth. What seems less complex to you seems so because you lack the depth of understanding to see its depth.

I'll try it another way, then.

How many MMA fighters train, not to fight, but to gain insight into themselves? How many train to apply martial arts concepts to their everyday lives (excepting those currently in the news for doing exactly that, but not in a good way)? How many extract enough understanding of a given movement to extrapolate what else could be done with the same biomechanical principles? How many seek to extend application?

Maybe I am indeed missing it, but I don't see MMA as presenting the opportunity for a rich inner life, development of spirit or morals, a life path as opposed to a lifestyle.

MMA is all application, and that application is fighting. Which is fine, I have no objections to it. But kata is about far more than fighting, for those who want that. MMA may ape the movements, and do so in an awesome way, but it does not seek to improve the person who applies the technique.

Some may view that as a put-down on MMA; I do not mean it as such. Sailors don't always sail because they wish to get somewhere, even though sails will indeed do that.

 

[Steve]

I'll try it another way, then.

How many MMA fighters train, not to fight, but to gain insight into themselves? How many train to apply martial arts concepts to their everyday lives (excepting those currently in the news for doing exactly that, but not in a good way)? How many extract enough understanding of a given movement to extrapolate what else could be done with the same biomechanical principles? How many seek to extend application?

most? Certainly the majority who progress beyond the basics.

Maybe I am indeed missing it, but I don't see MMA as presenting the opportunity for a rich inner life, development of spirit or morals, a life path as opposed to a lifestyle.

exactly. You're missing it.

MMA is all application, and that application is fighting. Which is fine, I have no objections to it. But kata is about far more than fighting, for those who want that. MMA may ape the movements, and do so in an awesome way, but it does not seek to improve the person who applies the technique.

Sorry. These blanket assertions of yours. How long have you trained Mma?

Some may view that as a put-down on MMA; I do not mean it as such. Sailors don't always sail because they wish to get somewhere, even though sails will indeed do that.

look. The point isn't one is better than the other. The point is, be consistent. Acknowledge your bias. Your perspective is myopic. You don't appreciate it when people criticize kata from positions of ignorance, but even in this post you are willing to do the that very thing. It's like a French chef being dismissive of Japanese Cuisine. You're the French chef looking at a plate of sushi and saying, sure it's delicious, but really... It's just some raw fish and rice. How can that compare to my rich sauces and the depth of flavors I create?

the more you explain your position, the more clear it is to me you don't see your own double standard.

 

[Tez3]

How many MMA fighters train, not to fight, but to gain insight into themselves? How many train to apply martial arts concepts to their everyday lives (excepting those currently in the news for doing exactly that, but not in a good way)? How many extract enough understanding of a given movement to extrapolate what else could be done with the same biomechanical principles? How many seek to extend application?

Maybe I am indeed missing it, but I don't see MMA as presenting the opportunity for a rich inner life, development of spirit or morals, a life path as opposed to a lifestyle.

One thing to remember is that a great many MMA people are also TMA people. In the beginning all MMA was done by TMA. Not all who do MMA fight either.
I think you have to differentiate the professional fighters who fight for a living from those who do MMA just because they wish to train a martial art and who indeed do actually train so they can become better people. I know quite a few like that and a whole club which is dedicated to teaching young people at risk from life's nastier things to be someone they can be proud of. it's not a new idea of course boxing has seen this for decades.
I think what you are doing is comparing the fighters you see in the big organisations such as UFC with people who do traditional styles and seeing MMA from that perspective when there are thousands of ordinary people with normal jobs, normal lives who do MMA because it does actually make them better people. There is a great deal of what you find in TMA in MMA, there's sportsmanship, courtesy, respect and a conquering of inner demons.
MMA is every bit as technical as TMA because it is TMA, it's not new, every technique you see in MMA is from TMA and yes MMAers do seek to extend applications some perhaps more than some TMAs do, they understand movements very well and are keen to expand their knowledge and capabilities.
I think perhaps you are forgetting that MMA is martial arts. Does it develop the spirit? very much so, I've seen perhaps more personalities change for the better through MMA than I have TMAs and yes it does teach morals and it is a lifestyle. When you look at the big name fighters they aren't the whole of MMA but a tiny, tiny tip of a big iceberg.
One of the reason militaries are looking to MMA is not because of it's fighting applications because there's plenty of styles around that can offer that but because of the other, more important to them, qualities it offers, that comradeship that comes of sparring and grappling together, the passing on of knowledge between them, people training together become a team when the training is hard. Overcoming difficulties and coming out the other side stronger in mind and body is something that MMA encourages, that can never be bad.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is becoming mixed martial arts vs traditional martial arts, and I did not intend that. Apologies for that.

My point was simpler, but I got off track.

If mixed martial arts are using techniques seen in Kara, that clearly the tenents of that particular movement are sound.

However MMA does not have kata in it, does it?

No kata is fine. Their use of the practical aspects of it are important for what they do. But if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from. That is all. You cannot learn the inner aspects of something you do not practice.

Just as Steve and Tez pointed out to me. All I really know of MMA is that it has no kata study. If it does, I'd like to see it.

 

[Tez3]

I don't believe it's turning into an MMA v TMA thread but it may turn into what does kata do for you thread lol.

Many of us train kata and bunkai for the pragmatic study of self defence techniques. I don't believe it teaches anything more than that such as morals, spirit etc. It's a very practical teaching tool/library. I don't believe either there are any hidden aspects to kata that relate to anything other than how to defend yourself.

A simple kata can be a boxer doing repetitive training of jab, cross, uppercut, more detailed ones can of course be found in karate, Judo etc. Kata can also be found in Japanese traditional dancing, singing and theatre.

 

[Zeny]

Personally i think the kata vs no kata debate is not so simple.

On the one hand, mma fighters are effective and brutal without any kata training. See this amazing video below. I think all the kata training would not help you if you let down your guard just for that split second. I also tried some mma in the local gym and the training is much tougher than i thought.

On the other hand, i'm a TMA guy which means i do a lot of kata style training and i can appreciate the real and tangible benefits it has offered me.

So essentially i think both manner of training are beneficial so just choose what you like. I also recently started piano classes, and i believe that every time my hand goes to the keyboard i will improve. Translate that to fighting, i think you'll improve every time you move your body and do something instead of lazing on the couch watching tv.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't generalise though, I've seen good and bad training in MMA and TMA. The other thing is that karateka don't just train kata and bunkai, they also use many methods of training. Too many people don't seem to understand what actually training means. MMA fighters don't fight in training which many seem to think that's all they do, TMA people don't just do kata. All training is diverse and allows different techniques, different scenarios, different training partners etc to be explored making for well rounded martial artists in whatever they do.

Totally agree. I train forms, power, speed, stance, breathing, body conditioning, strength and application. I just don't do forms and expect to gain everything I need only by doing forms.

 

[Steve]

This is becoming mixed martial arts vs traditional martial arts, and I did not intend that. Apologies for that.

My point was simpler, but I got off track.

If mixed martial arts are using techniques seen in Kara, that clearly the tenents of that particular movement are sound.

However MMA does not have kata in it, does it?

No kata is fine. Their use of the practical aspects of it are important for what they do. But if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from. That is all. You cannot learn the inner aspects of something you do not practice.

Just as Steve and Tez pointed out to me. All I really know of MMA is that it has no kata study. If it does, I'd like to see it.

Bill, couple of different thoughts. First, here's Lyoto Machida doing a kata:

And here's GSP doing a kata:

I'm very curious. Is this evidence of kata in MMA? I presume not, but there it is.

What if Greg Jackson invents a kata for his MMA guys. I dont' think that's beyond the realm of possibility. Would you consider that "real" kata? Would you believe that it imparts the less visible aspects of kata?

Second, you say, "if a person does not do kata, then the other, less visible aspects of kata are not there for them to learn from." Certainly, it's true that if kata isn't there, it isn't. But it does not necessarily follow that the benefits of kata are not there, unless you're seriously suggesting that you know kata is the ONLY way to achieve personal insight, a deeper understanding of biomechanics or personal growth in one's every day life outside of fighting. Where I think you're losing your way here, is to mistake your meaningful path for THE ONLY meaningful path.

 

[Zeny]

I must say, steve makes a compelling argument.

I think, when an mma guy or girl does a sidekick on a punching bag 100 times, that's a one step kata right there.

 

[Tez3]

On the one hand, mma fighters are effective and brutal without any kata training

A lot of MMA people are as I said TMA as well and have done kata, some still do. Kata also is not designed to make anyone 'brutal' it's designed to teach techniques and how to defend yourself in a civilian environment not a competitive one. Not all MMA fighters are effective and not all MMA'ers are fighters.